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Old 07-03-2013, 03:33 PM   #1
CrazyInMagic
 
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Warning Justin Miller (enduremiller) Exposed!

Sometimes you’ll find people who act like authorities but instead are terrible examples, some that have been exposed on here. I won’t say anything about their qualities as magicians, but in terms of behaviour I think Mr. Justin Miller tops all, acting like he cares about the art and literally claiming that whatever he says is all about reality and the truth. He drags a bunch of diehard supporters along who agree with whatever he says so when Mr. Miller talks bad about anyone or anything, those supporters will hate and talk bad about it too, even if they don’t know a single thing about the situation. This all adds up to why behind his back he is being called the Contradictator.


Falsely caring about the art
Quote:
F*** the industry. The industry has produced and birthed these thieves. The industry has produced and birthed exposure videos. The industry has to be stopped for the art of magic to survive.
-Justin Miller
Mr. Miller actually used to play a big part in the industry working with industry giant Ellusionist and others, but he claims not to be an industry artist anymore.

Of course something could have made him realise that the industry is bad for the art, but guess what? Only a month after he made those statements he went back to Ellusionist and has now released six more effects with them with quite a few more planned to come out later.

Also, Mr. Miller clearly is very much against thievery and piracy if you see and hear him talk about it, but after a 50-minute rant about it (see here) he actually says this:
Quote:
See, I’ve torrented stuff before, but guess what? I’ve actually paid for it afterwards. See, that’s a difference. I definitely have torrented stuff, without question. But I’ve paid for it afterwards, for whatever reason I couldn’t pay for it at the time. Maybe they didn’t take the credit card, maybe they didn’t take PayPal, whatever. So I torrented it, watched it [..] and then I bought the DVD. I paid for it. I did the right thing.
-Justin Miller
So he is against it but has made use of it and even thinks that making use of it regardless was the right thing to do? Even if he indeed paid for whatever he torrented, for whatever reason he couldn’t pay for these things at the time (isn’t that the excuse all these downloaders have?), by making use of it he has supported piracy.

Good job Mr. Miller, for continuing the birthing of thieves and exposure videos. How exactly do we stop you? I really, really want the art of magic to survive just like you said.


Desperate for money
This is at least what it seems like to me. This started in the end of February with Mr. Miller setting up a crowd-funding project on Indiegogo, asking people to give him thousands of dollars in total so that he could set up his own professional magic production company with a professional film studio and heavy duty office. Really now? A crowd-funding project for starting up a company? That is definitely a first, instead of offering a product or service which leads to or comes from a company. I think most people thought the same because this ended in a failure. Two weeks later, before the deadline was reached and only a few hundred dollars were donated, Mr. Miller decided to hide the project from the public. The trailer for it is still up and running, but I think this could also be used as an artist promo for that in the video he doesn’t talk about the project at all.

People make mistakes, although Mr. Miller has yet to admit to it and clear up the entire mistake, but the very next thing he decided to do right after hiding the Indiegogo campaign was to release something he called "The changing of the guard". He decided to lower all prices of all previously released products available on his website to "only $2.. for life". He said to do this to save the art and its value. Within two months after this started, all prices were raised to $5 so that definitely didn’t work out as planned either.

And if two money mistakes aren’t enough, when these prices were raised Mr. Miller decided to release a lot of things through Ellusionist again as said earlier. Why would he? What other reason could it be then for.. you know..


Fictional facts
For someone who says he is all about the truth and facts, Mr. Miller has made quite some incorrect claims. Hereby a couple of them which he has repeated in several occasions:

Quote:
It had been downloaded 2000 times in 3 days. F****** ridiculous. Now, it was a $35 DVD and that was just one DVD, in 3 days. That’s $70,000 in 3 days from 1 dvd, that was taken out of mine and kozmo magic pockets.
-Justin Miller
The one big problem with this and the reason why in a court of law he would not actually get $70,000 when suing the responsible pirate, is that there is absolutely no evidence that those 2000 downloads would have been 2000 sales otherwise (as a matter of fact, they wouldn’t). Add that to the fact that the same person could have downloaded it multiple times and that Mr. Miller himself has downloaded torrents in a way he thinks is okay and no one would ever be the only one in such situations, there would be substantially less downloads and money left. Of course I can see what he is coming from but that doesn’t mean it’s correct.

Quote:
I care about the magicians. I care about the the true students of magic who are getting ripped off. Because when you buy a bootleg, not only are you paying a higher price, but you’re also getting cheated out of the actual stuff that is supposed to be in the package.
-Justin Miller
I’m not and will not be talking good about bootlegs and thievery, but the purpose of bootlegs is to offer products at lower prices than the originals, how else would people ever be able to sell those products, if the items are available cheaper elsewhere? Mr. Miller even gives an example here showing a person selling a bootleg for 40/45rb which equals $6.50/7.34 instead of the $29.95 the actual product cost. That on its own says enough about bootlegs.

Also, people who are buying bootlegs usually are very well aware that they are buying a bootleg and not an original copy. Truth is that magicians from all around the world are buying items from Asia that would otherwise cost much more than they could afford, gimmicks and bigger illusions in particular.

Quote:
I have over 3000 people on my mailing list. I have over 5000 people on my Facebook. You know, that’s 8000 people.. over 8000 people that are my customers.
-Justin Miller
Not taking into consideration any overlap between the people on the mailing list and the people on Facebook?

Quote:
If you don’t have the material, you can’t steal it.
-Justin Miller
Mr. Miller seems to think magic thieves are only located in Asia, which caused him to limit access to his products for whoever lives in that continent. If he would actually think a bit more about this single quote though, he should see the incorrectness of it.

If those people don’t and can’t have the material, they steal it. That is what stealing is: taking what is not rightfully yours. Magic pirates in fact live all over the world. When checking the IP addresses from people who upload and seed magic torrents, also without proxy addresses, Asia does not even provide half of the original uploaders. The other half mainly are people from all over America and Europe.

It is true that the bootlegs are mainly produced in Asia (and Russia) but if those people cannot buy the products any longer, they will get them another way nonetheless, provided by those from the other continents.

Not saying I like any of this, not at all, but that is the reality.


Filthy-mouthed
Having seen some of Mr. Miller’s releases with Ellusionist, I can tell he knows how to behave properly. But then I heard that in his own, mainly uncut tutorials he often uses a huge amount of foul language. This might not be an issue on its own, but without any mention of this to any of the products, I see it as quite a big issue.

Imagine you have something against foul language because you dislike usage of it or because you happen to be a parent buying magic for your kid or anything. From Ellusionist or any of the other producers Mr. Miller has put out stuff with, it is a very short way to his own website and independent products. There is absolutely no reason to suspect any foul language in any of his products and nowhere does it warn you for this.


Diehard supporters
Lastly I would like to spend a moment on the supporters mentioned in the beginning of this post because I find it very frightening to see people that just can’t think for themselves. It has even come to a point where these supporters have been hating on Ellusionist and the industry because Mr. Miller told them to, even after he again joined the industry and put out stuff with Ellusionist.

Another example from Facebook from weeks ago:
Quote:
[...] wait until you see this one. Kranzo, penguin, dunn, mandy.
My Penguin Lecture was cancelled. Not by me.
Details
Emails
all coming soon.
JM
-Justin Miller
Never has he cleared up anything. The only two posts he added to this status update were:
Quote:
it all has to do with kranzo...dont worry illl post everything soon.
-Justin Miller
Quote:
Just got a call from penguin. Ill let you all know something on Friday
-Justin Miller
He has not posted a thing about the situation since, I guess because it has been solved, but his supporters are still hating on Penguin Magic and Nate Kranzo.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:35 PM   #2
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Wow, you seem to really care about me! Thank you! I know you "think" your doing the right thing by "exposing" me. But in reality you are hurting the art of magic.

I want to first start off by commending you and saying that I support your right to say and act however you want. I also want to say that I can see that you do really care about the art and I commend you for that. I do not believe this post is here because you are a detractor of mine. You seem to passionately care about magic...and so do I. That is what makes us brothers in this art.

Let me go through each point one by one:

Falsely caring about others
I am a big influence in this art whether you like it or not. My magic is performed by thousands of magicians all around the world. I have students in every single continent, and I have devoted my life to this art. Am I still against the industry? Yes in a big part, but I am also a realist and I have 2 children to take care of and all the other BS that life brings (bills,food..etc)
I am very careful who and what I align myself with in this industry.
I went back to E because they were the BEST possible resource at the time with what I wanted to do next...MAKE MONEY and GET NEW material out into a NEW generation that had not heard of me yet or that has only been open to a smaller part of my material... AND TO MAKE MONEY..YA DAMN SKIPPY! And as far as torrenting goes...umm yea I have done it and so has everyone else of this generation. But I always always MAKE IT RIGHT by paying for the actual download. And you know who has been the one person more than anyone else that I torrent..MYSELF! I am very very thankful for those who torrent now, because when I want my own shit (because I ran out of it at a lecture,convention etc) guess what? I can just download it..it is really great and saves me a shit ton of money.

Not Desperate For Money..but for change:
So you see it as a being desperate for money but the reason I started tweaking my prices is for one simple reason: I am experimenting with pricing points and ways to market better to those who do not have a lot of money. See, that is me caring about the students. I had the lowest prices in the magic world for a while (and the old material will still stay $5-8). Then I started to tweak it more, and I realized that I had a blind spot in my rear view mirror. Yes, everyone was BAT SHIT CRAZY happy that my prices went down and YES I made A LOT of money with that (like seriously, a BOAT LOAD), but I saw that I was missing a bigger picture when I got over 200 emails in that month saying they love the new price range (and here is a direct quote from one of those very loyal customers) "But your magic is way to special to just give this away, I would pay whatever it took to get your ideas in my hands" After reading that I realized that I was seriously undercutting myself and cheating my children out of their part. So I decided that that model (although a GREAT idea and one that i will still be going for and looking at in the future) was not the BEST one for me now. So all my new magic will be at a price (still fair and still cheap) that others have come to know, but the old material will stay in that experiment price range. You live..you learn!

(not going to comment on the download section since I cant prove anything to you and you seem to want that proof. I would just say do to some torrenting sites and take everything I have ever put out (its quite a lot, over 38 DVDs, not including downloads, lecture notes, interviews, etc) and look at the numbers..they don't lie..umm shit I guess I did comment!

Foul Mouthed is not a foul ball:
I am a grown ass, 37 year old man. I can say whatever, and however I want to say it. I do not cater to an industries feelings, or how they respect me. As long as I respect myself, I am ahead of the game. that is one of the reasons people relate to me so easily is because I am not someone who coats things with superficial talk and dumb ass surfacy language. I am honest, I do have integrity (although if you go to my haters sites and blogs and shit...that might seem contradictory.. by the way,DUDE thank you for the SUPERHERO name by the way.."THE CONTRADICTOR" said in the best Morgan freeman voice) and I do care a butt load about this art. I have given every ounce of energy in my body to that cause and will continue to do so until I die.

Penguin is not just a bird...it is a resolution:
And last but not least. The penguin lecture deal is not in stone yet so therefore it is not yours or anyone else's business. I will let YOU know when I want to GIVE YOU info on that! And as far as the kranzo deal. lol. Lets just say he TRIED really hard to make sure they did not hire me (even though they approached me) with lying, manipulation and the like. and you know what happened? I am lecturing for penguin in the future..and you know why? BECAUSE I STOOD UP FOR MYSELF AND THREATENED THE VERY FABRIC OF THE SITUATION! And when the dust settled, guess who won? Myself and penguin. Penguin magic and tim trono did right by me and I am very happy with the outcome. In no way do I want others to hate penguin, but i had to say what I had to say to get peoples attention. And it worked.

I would like to end by saying thank you very much for writing what you wrote. I am very very particular on WHO and WHEN AND WHERE I write back to on the internet, because honestly I could give 2 fucks what anyone thinks about me, and what they just HAVE TO TELL THE WORLD about me. Because its all just free publicity for me!
But you seem to have real questions and I wanted to respect you enough to answer those and you could hear it right from my mouth and not some bullshit rumor mill.
JM

(oh, and this is all I am saying about this, I will not be responding at length anymore...I have to go live life..toodels!)
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Old 07-04-2013, 12:20 AM   #3
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Hey Mr. Miller! Nice seeing you here.

Thank you for the thorough reply and for clearing up a lot but would you agree with me saying that you do not do a good job, or really any job clearing up changes and outdated things? If you really don’t want people to hate on Penguin Magic and the post already did its job, why not deleting it or saying you and them are good now?

Same with you hating on the industry and getting your supporters to do the same while going back to being an industry artist. To me it really seems that you don’t care a bit because after all you do exactly the things you said you loathed and that kill the art of magic, just like with the torrenting. I hope you know that by default, downloading torrents means you upload and share them too. By rejoining the industry and by using torrents, you really are making yourself part of the problem and in fact all the problems described by no other than yourself.

Thanks again but please think about what you are doing. Thank you for your time and for considering replying to this very thread even though we both know that you tend to reply to everything about you on the internet.
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:06 PM   #4
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The only thing I see wrong with it is that he doesn't take back his words and doesn't remove these vids. Thats the only reason that according to what he said by himself he now is like the biggest threat in magic while he actually acts no different than any other person in the industry..

and the many swearwords get a bit bothersome too but thats just me.

btw Justin, you miswrote your superhero nickname.
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:40 PM   #5
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What vids specifically. Yes I am the evil axis of the art of magic....lol
I also missspelled the word missspelled.
JM
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Old 07-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #6
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Okay, this is a reply to CrazyInMagic:


I’ll address each point in the order they were originally brought up. And Justin, if I’m off point with any of this, or if you disagree with anything, please let me know.


“Falsely caring about the art” – If he didn’t care about it, why has he been into magic for nearly 30 years? There are hundreds (probably more) of other occupations/hobbies that are more easily profitable than being a magician, yet here he is, almost 40 years old, still creating and performing magic. Have you ever purchased any of his work? I don’t think it matters which product you get, if you listen to how he speaks about magic, it becomes apparent that he cares immensely about the art.


“Desperate for money”? - Yeah, maybe, but does it really matter? He could be very well off, or he could be trying to decide which part of his electric usage he can live without, or he could be somewhere in between, but his financial situation is nobody’s business but his own. Regardless of what field someone gets themselves into, it is their responsibility to find a way to provide for themselves and their family, and if their current approach isn’t working, then they need to make a change somewhere in their career. Working magicians are not much different, magic becomes the source of income and that income is what puts food on the table, pays bills, mortgage, gas, food, etc.

Regarding your point about JM torrenting material while trying to condemn others who do, I’m with you there. Sorry Justin, I’m not going to stand with you on that one, since you kinda shot yourself in the foot when you admitted to using torrents.

I think it’s pretty obvious that Mr. Miller really doesn’t like the magic industry, and would prefer to sell his work solely through his personal website, but if he is looking at his life and the lives of his kids and realizes that a change needs to be made in order to continue to live a decent life, then he is perfectly justified in contradicting himself and making that change in deciding to sell his work though Ellusionist. If he is willing to sacrifice some of the value of his work so he can provide for his kids, then I have nothing but respect for that.


“Fictional Facts” – That argument was a bit weak, so I’ll keep it short. When his work is pirated, he is not really losing any money, but he is not gaining the money that should be going into his pocket. If $70,000 worth of product was downloaded, then that’s $70,000 worth of work that should be paid for.
If he has 3000 people on his mailing list and 5000 people on FB, there probably is some overlap, so it’s probably closer to 6000 – 7000, but either way, he was probably just trying to make the point that his work does sell well.


“Filthy-mouthed” – Well, I’ve never purchased any of his work from any of the “industry” companies (this is because I would prefer to have my money support the artist instead of the industry), so I can’t comment on his behaviour in any of those products. However, I do have a fair amount of the work he released on his site. While yes, he does use “foul language”, I believe that much of it is justified. Personally, I think there is a difference between “foul” and “strong” language: “strong” language can be acceptable when the speaker really wants to show (verbally) how frustrated they are. For instance, take the first 10 minutes of Legend, he does drop a couple b*******’s, a h***, and a f***, but he is using them to describe his frustration with this producer who doesn’t seem to care about the Legend effect that he (JM) worked so hard to create. “Foul” language is when these words are thrown around carelessly, without regard to their meaning or value. For example: ‘That f****** b**** can’t f****** teach worth s***…….’ <<< This comes off as being very trashy and unprofessional, which is not characteristic of Justin.

As for a parent buying magic for their kid (I’m assuming you mean the age range of 7 – 15ish), they should read the reviews on JM’s site – most of them are unedited, so it should be pretty apparent that most of his products are not aimed at the youngsters who are just getting into magic. There is absolutely no reason to suspect any foul language in any of his products and nowhere does it warn you for this.” …. Well, actually there is: the BOLD Project (which is hard to miss on the product page) says in the title: ‘18+ to purchase’. And since he allows uncensored reviews on his products, it is safe to assume that the products will also be uncensored, and perhaps of ‘adult’ nature. Regarding his ‘target’ audience/customers, he’s not pulling rabbits out of hats or sponge balls out of his ears, or any other such, you might say, superficial/shallow tricks. Take a look at “Last Word”, this is one powerful effect, mostly because it deals with the subject of death. I have performed this effect ONCE, and it hit HARD. I doubt that a kid whose parents are still buying them magic would have developed the mental and emotional maturity to present this as it was intended, and even if they (the kid) did manage to pull it off, would they be able to deal with whatever reaction they might get?


In conclusion, I don’t believe Justin Miller has done anything worthy of being posted in the “Magic Alert” section. This section “is where inappropriate actions of magicians and magic services are exposed to the public so you know what to look out for”, take a look at the rest of the threads, they are all about someone who has engaged in false advertising, fake contests, copyright infringement, plagiarism, magic revealing, etc. But out of all your points, the only thing (in my eyes) that JM has done wrong was to torrent material, which is hardly something to warrant posting in this thread.

This part is directed at all the ‘haters’ who refer to Mr. Miller as “THE CONTRADICTOR”, so if you’re not one of those, you can stop reading. Really? Really? If you (haters) think you are so high up there that you can disrespect and slander a professional magician who has advanced the art and proven himself time and again as being a huge influence in the field, why do you not have the balls to say it to his face?
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:13 PM   #7
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Hey TheSecretFire! Thank you too for your thorough reply.

I think there is a difference between really caring about the art and caring about it because you profit from it. Val Valentino also ”cares” about the art as the Masked Magician. Without the art of magic, he wouldn’t be known now. Not saying or implying Mr. Miller is on that level because he isn’t at all but just giving an example of someone who was in need of more money as well and turned a blind eye to the art and ethics.

If someone tells the world the industry needs to be stopped in order for the art to survive, this person sets an ethic for himself and anyone who sees or hears him talk about it. To care about the art from then on means the industry needs to be stopped and that no one should be feeding the industry (and the thieves and exposure makers) any longer, let alone the person who has stated that all by himself. If this person then doesn’t, this is hypocritical to the max. Money really is no excuse then.

If joining the industry is a must for Mr. Miller in order to survive and pay the bills, he should have taken back those bad words he has said about the industry. Doesn’t take long to say something like ”Hey guys, sorry, I have tried to do it on my own but I really need to join the industry again in order to feed my kids. Realise this doesn’t mean I all of a sudden like and support all of the industry, but I have to thank Ellusionist for the money and opportunity. Be kind to them.”. That would also get rid of all the current Ellusionist hate that plenty of Mr. Miller’s supporters now seem to carry (the point you forgot to address).

Also I think it’s very arguable that magic isn’t one of the easiest to profit from in relation to the amount of work it requires, even when keeping the exposure scene aside and merely focussing on the magic producing. Performing is a thing on its own and no it is not easy to profit from just that, but as a magic creator and producer all you need is a bit of creativity and performance skills are handy but not even a must. If your ideas are okay enough you are set for life, can sit back a lot of the time and just need to pick up your webcam or camcorder and shoot what you have come up with and maybe send your ideas to some other production companies every now and then. Again this is not implying Mr. Miller does that, but nothing begs to differ when looking at his website and video products (I say video products because that is all Mr. Miller produces these years and I hope you agree these make a lot less effort to make than ebooks, especially in Mr. Miller’s style).

Just saying it’s really hard to tell how much and in what ways Mr. Miller cares about the art and if this changed over time or not. Surely other ”more easily profitable” professions and occupations require a lot more and harder work or at least to get to the point when they become more easily profitable. In the meantime magic performers work off their butts to make a living from what they do while most creators and producers can stay in their lazy chairs.

I hope you can see what the top post is coming from. Any other person saying one thing and doing the exact opposite loses their credibility and deserves to be in this forum, but Mr. Miller doesn’t? I believe just the anti-piracy-while-torrenting part would already be enough for that.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:00 PM   #8
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You are all fooled by the sole trick one has yet to figure out... causing this spiteful drama, judgement and assumptions through your premature inquiries.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmastonishment View Post
What vids specifically.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJwzn85V9fc and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O6K7TWWP_s
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Old 07-08-2013, 07:45 PM   #10
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EDIT: I know this is long, please bear with me.

Hey, Justin, thanks for joining us here. I just wanted to give my two cents, address some (serious) concerns:

Before I begin, how about a few concrete reasons you should most certainly be included in the Magic Alert section of this forum (this is for you, too, TheSecretFire). The worst is your release of 'Ascension' on the 'BOLD Project' (I know it's not your effect, but you released it). It's a combination of 'Pughe's Pass' (more commonly known as the 'Cardini Change', which it's not, and should be credited to George Pughe) and Chad Nelson's 'Clipshift', neither of which you give any sort of credit. Not only is this completely immoral, but it also makes you a blatant liar, as it says on your website, "I always want to make sure I give credit to who credit is due." Hmmmm... that doesn't seem right. You are also guilty of false advertising in at least two different cases: not all of the effects included in the 'Merge' download can be performed with a borrowed deck and/or rubber band, and 'Cell-spension' is not completely self-contained and cannot usually be performed with a borrowed pen (see Convincing Control on Facebook). Unaccredited releases and false advertising are exactly the kind of thing the Magic Alert section is for. Anyway, here we go:

You talk (rant) a lot about how you hate the magic industry, and how you think it's ruining magic as a form of art (which is totally true). However, you never mention any specifics. Like how companies 1) release way more material than necessary, 2) use camera cuts in their trailers to make their products/performances look better/cleaner than they really are, 3) release unaccredited material, and 4) release material that's been recently released (even when they credit it, this is immoral). Those are the kinds of practices that the mainstream magic industry purports, right? The ones that are ruining magic? The ones you hate, right? And yet, you're participating in all of them. Don't believe me?
1) You have a total of 25 purchasable products, 130+ sleights, effects, routines, and concepts in all (not even including your Ellusionist releases). None of them were limited releases, all of them are still available, even your lecture notes. If you were actually helping magic (an art that depends on SECRECY and EXCLUSIVENESS), you wouldn't be releasing such an obscene amount of material, one of the biggest problems with mainstream, ultra-commercial magic companies. Then you made it worse and said this, "This project (the 'BOLD Project') is just a drop in the bucket of what I have planned to help get the art of magic back from the industry" ...
2) You're one of the worst abusers of the camera cut in the whole of the mainstream industry (because despite what you say and perhaps even think, you are a part of it). The trailers for the following effects (I kid you not)-- 'Riven', 'Decent', 'String Theory', 'LTS', 'C.A.B 2.0', 'Legend', 'Hopper' (that was a minor one, but still), 'Pieces of Me', 'Slip N Slide', 'The Creation Trilogy', 'Ecliptic', 'The Dark Principle', and '4 On Da Floor'-- all have cuts that are designed to either hide the setup of the effect, the setup for part of the effect, the setup of a sleight, the cleanup of a sleight, the cleanup of the entire effect, or cut out transitions where sleights are obviously performed. The trailers for 'WH Transpo' and 'Conviction' are even worse, as you used a cut exactly when a key sleight was performed. 'Double Stuff' and 'Last Word' don't even have trailers. This means that a large percentage (about 68%) of your trailers are not full performances of the effect/sleight you're selling, and are therefore misleading, for no other reason than to make your products look more attractive to naive consumers.
3) Already mentioned with 'Ascension'. Also, the ‘WH Transpo’ uses a combination of various age-old sleights, but you sell it like it's completely original.
4) The 'Zipper Change' is not the 'Zipper Change', it's the change Yoann F. uses in his effect 'Bruxelles', which was released earlier than the 'Zipper Change' on his collaboration DVD set 'Bluff'. Mentioning his name in the effect description doesn't give you the right to sell his move as your own under a different name. You didn't change a single thing about it.

All of this, in addition to the fact that you have been and continue to release with Ellusionist, proves that you are a shameless hypocrite, whether you know it or not, unless you can somehow convince everybody that you haven't done any of this (that would be a trick ). Now, some unrelated questions and concerns:

1) If I wanted to come across as a professional, who cares "a buttload about this art", I would abstain from using slang, swearing, and incorrect grammar, not all the time, but definitely on my website, where my consumers come to form opinions about me.
2) A question: Why on Earth would you torrent something and then pay for it? Wouldn't it make more sense to, oh, I don't know... just pay for it?
3) You talk like you make more money selling magic than you do performing it. Is that true? It seems like it, comparing your twenty five hyped-up products to your mere four performance videos, and that there is no biography, contact information, or even mention of where to go if they (your potential customers) want to book you for a gig. If this is true, it proves even further that you are just another part of the magic industry, and that all you raving against the magic industry is BS, because MAGIC IS A PERFORMANCE ART.
4) No magician should ever dream of boasting that they had created "the perfect color change" (the 'Creation Change'), or "the very best color change the art has seen to date" ('The Dark Principle', which you even claimed is superior to the 'Erdnase', 'Shapeshifter', and 'Bertram' changes). You claimed that the 'JM Count' is superior to the 'Elmsley Count', and that 'Double Stuff' is "one of the most important card moves of the 21st century". A dedicated student to the art of magic wouldn't make such vain and unfounded boasts in a million years. I understand marketing, but this is an art, not an infomercial.
Best wishes.

P.S. TheSecretFire, you don't think torrenting warrants a thread here?
And ouncesmusic, "spiteful drama"? Isn't that a bit... extreme?
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:24 PM   #11
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Des, I think your thoughts on trailer cutting are a tad too extreme. Justin's way of cutting these trailers makes very clear that something which would otherwise be seen on camera has been cut and left out from the performance, something requiring misdirection and audience management in real life. I get that some people do not like that, but I do not see anything wrong with that.

Rather that, than free public magic exposure or having completely unrelated or false clips at the moment of the cuts like what Ellusionist has done with 'Move' and 'CTG - Coin Through Glass'.
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Old 07-09-2013, 12:44 AM   #12
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I just like when a trailer is a full, uncut performance. That's why I like French Drop Magic Shop, Penguin Magic (mostly), and DarkSleightZ. Otherwise (at least to me) it seems like the performer is using the cuts to aide his performance, and that makes the product seem like it's something that hasn't been worked on very hard, kind of unfinished and shabby (even when this is totally not the case). But I do admit I was getting a bit worked up. But still, I guess you're right. I do still stand by it for 'Conviction'; I mean, c'mon, he cuts right in the middle of the I*****e Change. It's ridiculous.
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Old 07-16-2013, 09:13 AM   #13
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First off, sorry this reply is late, I've been really busy with some projects and my work.

CrazyInMagic:
Yes, I do see where you're coming from, and I do respect that you are concerned about the future of magic, though I think it's inappropriate to blatantly say that a fellow magician does not care about the art, especially when the person has made so many contributions to the art (which is why I replied to this thread in the first place).

I didn't forget to address JM's 'diehard supporters', I just didn't think it was necessary. If said supporters accept every word he says as truth, and are unable to think for themselves, this is hardly Justin's fault.

That whole section about 'fictional facts' had nothing to do with anything that JM has done wrong. It seemed as if you were just grabbing at strings, trying to come up with something else you could use against him, which is why I didn't spend much time on it in my previous post (it didn't support your argument).

Ouncesmusic: thank you for your contribution.

Des:
I'm not going to say much about "Merge" and "Cell spension", since I don't want to give anything away, and I think it's obvious that you don't have the download or know the secrets. So I'll stick with this: 99% of the time, you can use a borrowed pen for "Cell spension", if you see that a certain pen won't work, think fast and use your sharpie. If you feel you absolutely must use their pen, there's an easy way around the restriction - just be creative. The basic effect of "Merge" can be done with a borrowed deck, and with a little outside-the-box thinking, you can perform all the effects with a borrowed deck, once again, creativity is your friend.

As for Ascension, while it is a combination of the "Cardini Change" and "Clipshift", it is also a new application of the two moves. When someone performs an effect, they don't need to say: "At the moment, I'm doing a Marlo Tilt, and that last pass was created by Alexander Herrmann". Now, during the tutorial/explanation of the effect, credits should be given to the creators of each move/sleight. And if you have the BOLD project, you would know that credits are given to Nelson, and the clipshift is not taught, but rather he references you to buy Nelson's work. The "Cardini Change" is 'sleightly' modified for the effect.

That whole section about cutting trailers is easily explained: the purpose is to cover up sleights that would otherwise go unnoticed during a live performance. You can't rewind reality, but you can replay video. The cuts are there so that potential customers get the same experience that an audience would, without the ability to reverse-engineer the effect.

Double Stuff is more of a one-on-one type lecture, so it wouldn't really make sense to have a trailer. Last Word is not so much a trick/effect as it is an experience, and due to the very personal nature, it would be a bad idea to have a live performance as a trailer, and it's not really something that can be done well for the imaginary spectator.

Yes, the WH Transpo does use a comination of age-old sleights, but guess what? So does "As Predicted by Sid" and "The Chosen One" and "Automated ACAAN", so where's Mystery Mark's exposure thread (not bashing you Mark, just making a point, and "The Chosen One" is brilliant)?

The foul language/swearing is a personal choice. I believe that the audience should remember a performer not just by what they can do, but for who they are, so it's up to the performer to determine how they want to be remembered. If he was, say, signing cards with obscenities, or 'spelling' swear words to find cards, or telling the specs stuff like: "F*** off, I'm a magician", then that would be a disgrace to the art, and I would definitely not support his work. Read my previous post for more on this.

"Why on Earth would you torrent something and then pay for it?" To make sure that the creator/producer gets paid for their work. Sometimes you'll come across a company that doesn't accept paypal or money orders, so you have to go to the location (which could be in a different country) to purchase the material. I'm not saying that what JM did is right, but he at least tried to make amends for it - most people wouldn't bother.

No, I don't think that torrenting warrants a thead here. It's usually illegal/frowned upon, but it is such a commonplace act, and it's not much different from listening to music on Youtube, or ripping a friend's CD/DVD - you are gaining copyrighted material without paying for it. But that example aside, if torrenting really does warrant a thread here, then I should probably start one for my buddy Juan, and his buddy, Rico, and one for my friend Anthony (who is a magician), and maybe one for a past professor, who torrented an out-of-print textbook, etc.

With regards to the Magic Alert section, I realize that standing up for the exposed is not a common thing to do on this forum. I also realize that at least one user on here (and a prominent one at that) is one of those who refers to Justin as "THE CONTRADICTOR" behind his back, and while I do not agree with everything JM does (I can see how he got the nickname), I still believe it is very disrespectful and dishonorable, to refer to Justin (or anyone) in such a manner.


I'd like to conclude by saying that since JM made a public statement of: "F*** the industry", then rejoined them, he should also make a public statement explaining his reasoning and maybe something along the lines of: "Okay, I was wrong, I can't do this by myself just yet, un-f*** the industry". I am by no means a 'diehard' supporter of Justin, but I will always stand up for what (or who) I believe is right, regardless of opposition, and I also have respect for others who do the same, even if they have a different perspective from my own.

In Magic,
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Old 07-16-2013, 04:24 PM   #14
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99% isn't 100%. I know you'd have to be stupid to not have a back up plan, or be able to improvise around it, but the product page should have to at least mention that, or it's false advertising.
If you want the creator of an effect to get the credits and money they deserve for their work, why not just buy the effect? Why go through the trouble of torrenting it, then paying? If they're going to get the money either way, why not play it safe and do it legally? If it's downloads, you can purchase them anywhere in the world, so...
I still stand by what I said about the trailers. Trailers are not for spectators, they're for magicians. I want to be able to look at an effect and know whether it's practical or not, whether it's my style or not, what the angles are, and to form an opinion on whether or not to be buy it. Say I do, and there's a part of the effect that looks suspicious, or that I simply don't like? If I had seen it in the trailer, I would have refrained from buying it. Now, I'm left feeling misled and ripped off, and am much less likely to purchase another product from the company/person in question. It's not about reverse engineering an effect, it's about knowing what you're about to spend money on.
The same goes for credits. Obviously, you're not going to tell spectators which move is from where, but you're not selling material to spectators, you're selling them to magicians. And you don't have to name specific moves on product pages either (which isn't what I was suggesting). I just think that credits should be given to the artist on the product page, especially if you're going to need to purchase additional material because of them (sorry to Justin, by the way; I automatically assumed you didn't credit Chad, which was pretty bad of me ). For example, the product page for the BOLD project should say something like, 'In order to perform one of the effects included in this project, you will need to have purchased Chad Nelson's 'Surfaced' DVD, for approximately $40.' Not that hard.
What I said about the 'WH Transpo' was stupid. Sorry.
I'm going to PM you about 'Merge'.
I read your previous post about his swearing. Really? Because opening an update video with 'Hey, motherf***ers!' come across as both trashy and unprofessional. Really unprofessional.
He's a hypocrite (until he revises the statements he made, or stops releasing with mainstream companies) who uses false advertising. Magic Alert? I think so.
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Old 07-16-2013, 05:29 PM   #15
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Thanks for another thorough reply, TheSecretFire!

It indeed is not Mr. Miller’s fault that those supporters can’t think for themselves but it is troublesome that he supports and likes said behaviour and at no moment has cleared up the things he said. I am glad you also think that he should have. I think we are on the same page, just coming from other sides.

The fictional facts section is something I care about. Because he states those things as hard facts people might and often will take these as hard facts. For someone who often bashes others based on "the truth" and who continuously says he does not care about how people take things but how things truly are to spread fictional facts I think is worrying and worth discussing. Especially when this person causes hate towards several individuals and groups of people. We all know what this has led to in the past.

I will not say much about product-specific issues. I think that using existing things for new applications is no crime. I do think that claiming anything that has obviously been done before is, like with the Silky Change, Creation Change and Ascension by Ric Edgell to name a few.

I am a bit lost by how you think you should act the way you want to be remembered but then think a magician doing obscene things is a disgrace to the art while it might be his character and the way he wants to be remembered. The problem I have with Mr. Miller’s foul language is that back in the day he didn’t use foul language in his videos and he doesn’t use foul language when working with any other company either, but in the videos he sells on his current website he does while from the outside not much has changed and people who have gotten to his website because of other or older releases might not expect it. They have absolutely no reason to. The uncensored reviews don’t clear it up either because those are not even Mr. Miller’s own words.

The torrenting just adds to the topic as a whole. If you can’t pay for something at a given moment, you can’t have it at that moment. That is how it is. He basically said that stealing anything is the right thing to do as long as you go back to the store or person to pay for it later (if you even remember to do that in each and every case). He didn’t say he paid to make up for anything, he said it was the right thing to do, the correct approach to blatant piracy. It is also the same as saying "I am poor so I will steal things and the day I am rich I will pay for all of it." However, I think we have settled the torrenting already because no one here has agreed with Mr. Miller’s take on it.

This is not to disagree with what you said, TheSecretFire, just to verify how I see those things and why I think they are very worth posting and discussing. I am very pleased that you know what I am coming from and how you also think Mr. Miller should clear up the hate towards the industry. That is the main reason why I wrote the post anyways.


A twisted ethic
I feel like adding a twisted ethic Mr. Miller apparently has come up with. In the Dark Principle he ends up talking about The Crook by David Forrest and Lee Smith. They posted a video about this upcoming product about nine months before the Dark Principle even existed and the effect happens to look extremely similar. Mr. Miller ends up giving them a shout-out but no credits for this reason:
Quote:
Name of this game basically is that whoever publishes it first gets credit for it. That’s kinda the way it is. Good or bad, that’s the way it is.
-Justin Miller
Not to add that apparently he didn’t do proper research because he said he merely looked for the product and couldn’t find it. But if I post a performance video or a trailer of an upcoming product like in this case, he would be allowed to take and release it? No, that is not how it works and that is not the way it is. I am pretty sure that if I would do that to any of Mr. Miller’s original tricks, he would be furious. It would also mean every performer is forced to publish their entire repertoire and set, meaning they couldn’t perform these live anymore. Of course if it isn’t published someone could independently come up with the same idea and publish it, but any kind of evidence of earlier existence counts.
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:23 AM   #16
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Thanks for that. Justin, like, what...
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Old 08-04-2013, 04:45 AM   #17
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Lets be constructive,

The main issue of the rant is how piracy in magic has affected Mr.Miller:
Magic piracy is something that CANNOT be stopped. You can try to control it, but you cant stop it. Even if Mr.Miller reduced the prices to $2.00 or $5.00, or even 10cent, people are still going to pirate it because they can get it for FREE. Tweaking the prices makes no difference*. What difference does it make if you limit your releases to Asia? Now those people who can't get it will torrent it. causing even more piracy acts.
You will just have to depend on loyal magician who will do the moral thing. That is all.

Here is why you will not succeeded with your own label of the "magic industry":
Here i am specifically referring to your indiegogo campaign. How different will your company be from the rest? Not much. No company can EVER stop piracy acts. It will only be money and time consuming on your part.




Here is the bigger issue with regards to the point above: your ATTITUDE.

http://weeklymagicfailure.blogspot.s...t-i-guess.html

^incase you didn't know, you're featured... again!

The reason why I have never (and probably will never) buy product from you directly is strictly because of your terrible customer service. If you want to start a professional company, have a professional attitude. Regardless magic related business or not, you are taking money from people. I am completely fine with all the swearing, heck I have a very foul mouth myself. But when it come to Asian countries (I'm from Singapore), most magicians are actually kids and teens. Generally, the adults will only perform for corporate events like stage or grand illusion shows(I'm not sure how it is outside Asia). So yeah, your fan base in Asia is GENERALLY made out of kids and teen(hopefully this explains the torrents). So basically foul language is a NO.

Other thought and comments:
Many years ago in my early teens, I did enjoy and LEGITIMATELY bought your effects from E. Keep that in mind. I don't and probably will never do direct sales with you because of your attitude. Dont take it the wrong way. Take it constructively. I understand your situation with your kids etc etc. But the issue lies within you, NOT the magic industry, NOT your kids. If you stop creating effects, to threaten the pirates, then you wont have anything to earn money from anyway. It doesn't affect me, I refrain myself from performing "off the shelf" magic a long time ago. It is hard to survive in this industry especially in your current situation. If you are depending on creating trick full time and it is not working out, get a 9-5 job and do magic on the side. Supporting your family is number priority. Just my humble advice.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:26 AM   #18
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*high five*
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Old 02-27-2014, 06:56 PM   #19
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I really tried to resist posting again, but this is getting too stupid. On Facebook, after Mr. Miller continuously shoving atheism down people’s throats just like Jehovah’s witnesses do with their beliefs, deleting and blocking Facebook friends who try to argue simply because they don’t like said posts, and Mr. Miller even deleting and blocking people who spent their hard-earned money on his products, he now did the following:

Shameless lying
In a thread on the Magic Café, Brandon (bgm4gic) posted that he was about to purchase Mr. Miller and Tyler Reed’s S.U.D. but resisted because he promised himself not to spend money on magic this year. He said he has nothing against Mr. Miller and actually is a huge fan of Mr. Miller’s Autograph.

Mr. Miller then sent Brandon the video files for free and in return Brandon left a review in the thread. He started the review with "So Justin was kind enough to send me the video links for S.U.D. for a review." and the review in its entirely is extremely positive, obviously also because Brandon didn’t need spend a single dime on the product.

But on Facebook, Mr. Miller copy-pasted and posted the entire review, leaving out the just-quoted sentence and thus the fact that he gave it to Brandon for free. And instead, he titled it "REVIEW OF S.U.D BY A CUSTOMER". A customer?? Really??
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:00 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyInMagic View Post
I really tried to resist posting again, but this is getting too stupid. On Facebook, after Mr. Miller continuously shoving atheism down people’s throats just like Jehovah’s witnesses do with their beliefs, deleting and blocking Facebook friends who try to argue simply because they don’t like said posts, and Mr. Miller even deleting and blocking people who spent their hard-earned money on his products, he now did the following:

Shameless lying
In a thread on the Magic Café, Brandon (bgm4gic) posted that he was about to purchase Mr. Miller and Tyler Reed’s S.U.D. but resisted because he promised himself not to spend money on magic this year. He said he has nothing against Mr. Miller and actually is a huge fan of Mr. Miller’s Autograph.

Mr. Miller then sent Brandon the video files for free and in return Brandon left a review in the thread. He started the review with "So Justin was kind enough to send me the video links for S.U.D. for a review." and the review in its entirely is extremely positive, obviously also because Brandon didn’t need spend a single dime on the product.

But on Facebook, Mr. Miller copy-pasted and posted the entire review, leaving out the just-quoted sentence and thus the fact that he gave it to Brandon for free. And instead, he titled it "REVIEW OF S.U.D BY A CUSTOMER". A customer?? Really??
Lol, this is just to good.
IF you must know, after I sent him the videos for S.U.D and he watched them, he went onto the site and actually bought the gimmicks..hence he is a customer. So I did not lie. And his review (don't know the guy at all) was an honest and thoughtful review, asked him to say anything special. I REALLY hope I get to meet MOST of you at a convention someday. It would be a great treat for me!
And those people do not get blocked because I do not like their post, I block people for diff. reasons. And one of the reasons recently is a guy said he would kill his son if a voice in his head (god) told him to, just like "god" did with Abram in the old testament. I do not want mentally disturbed people on my fb threads trying to influence others with their DANGEROUS belief system. A word of advice, if you are going to spend your time talking about someone, (really stalking them) GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT it is a huge time saver.
JM
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