Disappointment in today's magic industry...

[KGaborMagic]

If an Octopus Could Palm....65 DOLLARS??? This is why I like only DarkSleightZ.
The Dan and Dave products are changed from sharing the art to making a living by conning people (like Monet, AP, TOP, Uzumaki, Sybling and now this...)

[Mark]

65 bucks for a thin book that comes with a deck of cards?! Woot?! And I didn't see anything original in the trailer either. Seems like a bunch of independent recreations and tweaks to classics they (apparently) renamed.

The way Dave performs some of those techniques and applications in the trailer look a bit too cardist'y to me too, not the way palming applications are supposed to look like. Maybe just good practice material?

But yeah... that's just... wrong!

[MeandmagiC]

indeed, I just saw the trailer the other day, I am waiting for a review though.
It all doesnt seem very practical....
just like their trilogy dvd. there is some useful stuff in it, but I will almost never do the jonas change live....
just saying.
I dont know what to expect from this.

[Mark]

David Berglas & Kaufman's 'The Berglas Effects': Book of 400 pages + 3 DVDs + 3D effects/glasses = $200 ($215 if outside US; first sold for $150/$165)

Lennart Green's 'Master Files': 4 DVDs + Deck of cards + 'Stolen Cards' = $150 ($160 if outside US)

Dan & Dave's 'If An Octopus Could Palm': Thin book (probably about 50 pages) + Deck of cards = $64.95 + shipping

Dan & Dave's 'If An Octopus Could Palm - Uncut Sheet': Uncut sheet of playing cards = $41.95 (or $47.95 if outside US)

----------------------------------------

Comparing master magicians' life works to 'If An Octopus Could Palm' shows some people must think a 'little' too high of themselves. Keep in mind that all of these products were released in limited amounts, because some people think that's the reason for the high price of D&D's book and such.

'In An Octopus Could Palm' is approximately 1/7th of 'The Berglas Effects' or 'Master Files' as for its content, and then I'm being extremely generous.

[TheMisdirectingHand]

In the trailer for "If An Octopus Could Palm," I spotted quite a few flashes, too.

Hey, most of the main magic industries these days are overpriced by default.

[Mark]

Honestly, I'm the first to say that magic is very cheap nowadays (grand illusions still are way expensive though, but I think close-up/street magic isn't overpriced, at least... usually it's not). And I know that every single one of our products are way under-priced too.

But everyone can tell that 'If An Octopus Could Palm' is too expensive by all means, when comparing it to either other D&D products or to the rest of the magic industry as a whole. 'The Trilogy' is sold for $85 and contains almost three times as much content. This book should've been sold for no more than $35 (you can calculate it in many ways and each calculation would (and should) give you that price as a maximum).

[la0o9]

the new DnD book first looked cool, and exciting... but then i saw the price, it's worth no where near that amount... and even if some people could re-sell the deck again( they said it's an original deck, and never printed again), it's not going to be anywhere expensive enough to cover the rest of the book( the art isn't that good, no idea about the quality, but i predict 20$ max for die-hard collectors)

[Fin]

Looks interesting but way overpriced for my palette

[Kieran Oloughlin]

When I saw the trailer I thought. "That looks awesome" when I saw it was 65$ dollars I was like WWWWWWHHHAAA

[KGaborMagic]

Wow. They just deleted all negative comments about the price and the book. Why do they want us to buy it, if they don't care about their supporters opinion?!

[Mark]

Here comes the worst thing:

Originally Posted by Dan and Dave (Twitter)

we recommend one has a basic understanding of palming techniques before attempting the material in the book.

So you spend $65 on something incomplete and would have to spend another couple of bucks on the fundamentals of palming? And why is this only said 10 hours ago on Twitter? It's essential information if you'd ask me.

Originally Posted by robandbob55

Wow. They just deleted all negative comments about the price and the book. Why do they want us to buy it, if they don't care about their supporters opinion?!

That is my main concern and what my main frustration comes from. This price is an insult to their supporters. They know their supporters got this kind of money or have parents with the money (many of them got 'The Trilogy' for X-mas or their birthdays). However, this book would be much more difficult to get. First off, the decks will probably be sold out far before the end of December and secondly, it's a really thin book rather than 3 fully filled DVDs.

[Albert]

*Gathers spit* Katoo! *Spits on the book*

[Mark]

Did anyone actually wonder about those companies' clothing prices (those companies being DnD and T11)? Dan and Dave sell t-shirts for $37.95, Theory11 sells theirs for $49.95 and their hoodies are as expensive as $75(?!?!). Why can Ellusionist actually sell theirs for the normal price of $19.95, pretty similar to what we asked for shirts ourselves. It's not that the quality couldn't be much better (or could it, Albert?).

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Mark

Did anyone actually wonder about those companies' clothing prices (those companies being DnD and T11)? Dan and Dave sell t-shirts for $37.95, Theory11 sells them for $49.95 and their hoodies are as expensive as $75. Why can Ellusionist actually sell theirs for the normal price of $19.95, pretty similar to what we asked for shirts ourselves. It's not that the quality couldn't be much better (or could it, Albert?).

I highly doubt that the quality is that much better. They seriously are overpriced. These companies seems to think that they are 'the' luxury brands in the world of card magic and are overcharging things, thinking their brand is backing them up. It's really ridiculous. The shirts that you sell are very good quality. Although I'm sure there could be better quality ones, it definitely does not lack and is a very good price for $20.

So, my thinking is, those companies are getting full of themselves, thinking that they are the Gucci, Prada, or Louis Vuitton of the world of magic, that they are the representative companies of magic.

[Travmang]

All they are is a group of stupid dinosaurs!

[Mark]

Biggest problem is that nor Dan and Dave nor T11 are actual clothing designers. If Gucci would start making paper playing cards, those decks better be under $7 each or else they can't be taken serious. How in the right mind could magic/card companies think of putting such high prices for (non-magical) clothing?!

Okay wait, we know they don't have right minds. But I just hope that someone within those companies stands up someday and talks some sense into the managers because this is getting nuts.

[Albert]

What's worse is that there are suckers who fall for that... >.< ;

[Fin]

Originally Posted by Mark

Biggest problem is that nor Dan and Dave nor T11 are actual clothing designers. If Gucci would start making paper playing cards, those decks better be under $7 each or else they can't be taken serious. How in the right mind could magic/card companies think of putting such high prices for (non-magical) clothing?!

Have you been to a Gucci store recently? Of course they would be taken seriously, since anyone entering their shop is already expecting a certain kind of price tag on their items. In fact if Gucci honestly started making decks of cards it would make no sense at all to be selling them at a "standard" price. "When you buy Gucci cards you are not just buying glorified paper, you are buying decades of design experience and excellence... now applied to card manufacturing and design!".

I think we should be more realistic about T11 and D&D. They weren't started for us. They were started to make money, like ALL OTHER COMPANIES. We all know that its common practice among "designer" companies to produce stuff they supposedly do not specialise in, and charge a bomb for it. Dan and Dave's and Theory11's approach is no different to many other companies. So who decides if they are "designer" labels or not? THEY DO! They choose the "image" they want for their company and base their pricing approach on that. NOT solely on the actual quality of their products. If we don't like it we don't buy it and they go out of business, period.

For example: If you went to the right Ferrari factory or perhaps their HQ, you would probably find a "souvenir shop" (also see FreddieW's recent visit to STEAM HQ). That would undoubtedly house many products, such as hoodies, watches, pens, doorstops, teddies, maybe even Ferrari-made after-dinner-mints!!! These are not products Ferrari claims to be amazing at making, but they will still cost above what you would expect for the same product bought on the high street because you are in the FERRARI souvenir shop. They can charge what they like based on what their own opinion of their brand is. So if T11, or whoever, think they are "specialists" in magic products, and they charge a bomb for a normal hoody just because it has "T11" printed on it then they are only following the same business model as countless other companies which charge "above what I'd like to pay" for their products. This is not a big deal and its not at all new. They would have gone out of business long ago if everyone thought they were a rip-off.

I think we should just put this down to DIFFERENT BUSINESS MODELS. People have different ideas of how they want to run their company. And afterall, it is theirs, they can run it however they like, and we can vote with our feet. The question is... is it working for them? Clearly the answer is yes. Some people do appreciate what they offer, or they would not still be in business. So are they just being selfish, or are they actually being good businessmen?

The bottom line: Dan & Dave, Theory 11, and others, have just had the business brains to realise that the magic industry had room for "designer labels" and they have started companies to fill those gaps. Those who don't like it shop elsewhere; those who do like it are keeping them in business.

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Fin

The bottom line: Dan & Dave, Theory 11, and others, have just had the business brains to realise that the magic industry had room for "designer labels" and they have started companies to fill those gaps. Those who don't like it shop elsewhere; those who do like it are keeping them in business.

You make a great point. My only doubt or rather, curiosity (?), lies in the fact that these companies either seriously believe that they are those high-label brands or they are utilizing their target market of younger people (who usually get gifts from parents) and implanting into their brains that they are awesome, that they are the representatives of magic, making those younger people want to buy it. This is a great business tactic, but also at the same time, very very filthy since they, in reality, are NOT the awesome brand they claim to be. They simply manipulate their target market into making their parents buy it for them especially since those parents don't know anything about the magic market.

It really is not cool how they manipulate vulnerable people like that.

[Fin]

Originally Posted by Albert

This is a great business tactic, but also at the same time, very very filthy since they, in reality, are NOT the awesome brand they claim to be. They simply manipulate their target market into making their parents buy it for them especially since those parents don't know anything about the magic market.

It really is not cool how they manipulate vulnerable people like that.

But what you are talking about here is, quite literally, advertising; this is the very nature of the beast! There are countless adverts on tv, targeted at the correct times to hit youngsters while they are watching, and these adverts are doing the EXACT same thing - manipulating their target audience into making their parents buy whatever it may be, pokemon, barbie, etc Toys, magic, sweets, whatever. We don't actually NEED any of it, and companies are competing to convince us and our parents that we DO need it all! So even if Theory11 secretly knows its not as good as it's making out to its customers but publicly acts like its great then what have we got? Absolutely NOTHING new in the world of business - in fact nearly all companies "big themselves up". So if now we are having a go at Theory 11 for "targeting" a young audience and "manipulating" them, then we should also be against, lets face it, most if not all advertising which is aimed at children.

Ever heard of Coca-Cola? It's widely known as one of the ultimate success stories of the power of advertising over the actual quality of a product. Think about it - by far the biggest drink brand on the entire planet, but what is it? Where did it come from? (I mean what planet). It doesn't even have a name for the flavour; it's just "coke". Can anyone tell me why its so popular? Not because its the best tasting drink in the world; not by a long shot. The sole reason for Coke's success is advertising. But if you don't like the taste of Coke then you may say "they are not the awesome brand they claim to be and are purposely ripping us off". Clearly this is just your opinion and their success belies the fact that there's is obviously more to this than just one big hoodwinking scam. Maybe it's down to your taste!

Are we really to think the Theory11 guys are sat in their office thinking "we aren't that good but lets make out that we are to fool our customers and sell more than we should! Muahahahahaaa!". Nope. Its as simple as this: They have chosen their approach, they are confident with their brand (whether right or wrong), and they think the prices are justified (whether right or wrong). The truth of the rights and wrongs come down to opinions and nothing more. No more evil conspiracies or purposeful hoodwinking of customers than many, many other companies - just a different approach to the one that you would like for a magic business.

I guess I'm just more forgiving of different peoples ideas and approaches to the magic business than you guys are, but thats ok; I am amazing like that