Herrmann Shift/Turnover Pass

TheMisdirectingHand · 05-09-2011, 02:35 AM

After some refining...

la0o9 · 05-09-2011, 06:21 AM

nicely done my friend.

Kieran Oloughlin · 05-10-2011, 07:48 AM

I saw no flahses well done. Now to see if Mark can notice any

s13zeTheDay · 05-11-2011, 03:15 AM

There aren't any flashes. A flash is when you expose the method. These may not be perfect, but that's a different issue, and I'm not going to sit and nitpick with my magicians eye when these are both very nicely done.

That said, in a general sense I would advice against using both of these moves, as they are hard to justify on their own the same way you can easily justify a classic pass. Though there are some situations for which they are great (especially the turnover pass), just use caution. Make sure you have a very good reason for turning the deck.

la0o9 · 05-11-2011, 03:38 AM

there are always some sort of reason you could make up for using the turnover pass( actually... all i use that for is to show that the bottom card isn't their card... after i controlled it to the bottom, so my words probably doesn't mean much). But i agree with you about the Herrman Shift, i myself only practice it for fun but don't use it( same way i do with the Erdnase 1 handed shift and the classic pass)

Kieran Oloughlin · 05-11-2011, 06:59 AM

the herman shift just looks like you are squaring the cards

TheMisdirectingHand · 05-12-2011, 01:08 AM

@Seize- I think that the Herrmann/Turnover Pass can be used just as effectively as a Classic Pass. I always have justification for turning over the pack; I think it is more effective at times because of the "move" being invisible. The Classic Pass can be flashed more easily if looked at directly.

s13zeTheDay · 05-12-2011, 01:26 AM

I'm just saying that a lot of magicians I see either just use squaring the deck or something like showing that the bottom isn't their card ass an excuse. You just pushed it fairly into the middle, why are you showing the bottom? While I was just using the pass as an example (which, btw, if you are flashing you just need to practice, b/c done well theres a near 0 chance of flashing, even with people burning your hands), my main point was that there are much more useful sleights and controls that can accomplish similar or the same things. You should always put the justification of the sleight BEFORE how proficient you are at it. Also though I don't dislike either move, and use the turnover pass in one of my favorite routines, these two involve obvious movements of the deck which need to be justified. Again, not trying to detract from the performance, which was very good, just stating my opinions.

TheMisdirectingHand · 05-12-2011, 11:49 PM

I can't change your opinion, I just personally love using it. Out of the two though, I would prefer the Classic Pass because of its convenience. Though every move has to have a purpose, the justification used by the performer could be interpreted differently by magicians and laypeople. The Turnover Pass is a beautifully crafted move with plenty of applications. I can think of a few effects where the Turnover Pass would be handy- but I am just starting out with magic, so my opinions are not based off of too much, only my own knowledge, so I am sorry if I offend you in anyway at all.

Mark · 05-14-2011, 09:56 AM

When performing for laymen I think it's better to overjustify than to not do it at all. They know something is going to happen and they want to be sure the card is lost so I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Oh the times I was asked to show the top and bottom card.. it happens pretty often.. even when you fairly pushed the card in the middle.

Oh, and nice ones, David!

Kieran Oloughlin · 05-14-2011, 10:43 AM

I use the table tap pass a lot but to it on my leg it is effetive and justified
(except that the cards sometimes end up more meesy than when befor I tapped them)

la0o9 · 05-14-2011, 12:02 PM

uhm... what is the table pass? it is a pass that needs to be on a table to be done?( usually that's the meaning i'd resort to... but i actually know 2 passes that needs a table to work... and neither of them are named as such)

Mark · 05-14-2011, 01:52 PM

It's not a 'Table Pass' but a 'Table Tap Pass' a.k.a. the 'Hoffman's Pass'. Tapping the deck onto the table top or on you knee in order to square it up is basically the cover you use. For the rest it's just a 'Herrmann's Pass'.

Kieran Oloughlin · 05-15-2011, 06:33 AM

Yep thats the one

05-09-2011, 02:35 AM	#1
TheMisdirectingHand David Nguyen Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rosemead, California Posts: 406	Herrmann Shift/Turnover Pass After some refining... __________________ "There are three types of people in this world; •People who talk and never do: The Lower Class •People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class •People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class." -Joseph Lau

05-09-2011, 06:21 AM	#2
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	nicely done my friend. __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

05-11-2011, 03:15 AM	#4
s13zeTheDay Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 150	There aren't any flashes. A flash is when you expose the method. These may not be perfect, but that's a different issue, and I'm not going to sit and nitpick with my magicians eye when these are both very nicely done. That said, in a general sense I would advice against using both of these moves, as they are hard to justify on their own the same way you can easily justify a classic pass. Though there are some situations for which they are great (especially the turnover pass), just use caution. Make sure you have a very good reason for turning the deck. __________________ What you do in this world is a matter of no consequence. The question is, what can you make people believe you have done. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study In Scarlet

05-11-2011, 03:38 AM	#5
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	there are always some sort of reason you could make up for using the turnover pass( actually... all i use that for is to show that the bottom card isn't their card... after i controlled it to the bottom, so my words probably doesn't mean much). But i agree with you about the Herrman Shift, i myself only practice it for fun but don't use it( same way i do with the Erdnase 1 handed shift and the classic pass) __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

05-12-2011, 01:08 AM	#7
TheMisdirectingHand David Nguyen Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rosemead, California Posts: 406	@Seize- I think that the Herrmann/Turnover Pass can be used just as effectively as a Classic Pass. I always have justification for turning over the pack; I think it is more effective at times because of the "move" being invisible. The Classic Pass can be flashed more easily if looked at directly. __________________ "There are three types of people in this world; •People who talk and never do: The Lower Class •People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class •People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class." -Joseph Lau

05-10-2011, 07:48 AM	#3
Kieran Oloughlin Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 414	I saw no flahses well done. Now to see if Mark can notice any

05-11-2011, 06:59 AM	#6
Kieran Oloughlin Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 414	the herman shift just looks like you are squaring the cards

05-12-2011, 01:26 AM	#8
s13zeTheDay Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 150	I'm just saying that a lot of magicians I see either just use squaring the deck or something like showing that the bottom isn't their card ass an excuse. You just pushed it fairly into the middle, why are you showing the bottom? While I was just using the pass as an example (which, btw, if you are flashing you just need to practice, b/c done well theres a near 0 chance of flashing, even with people burning your hands), my main point was that there are much more useful sleights and controls that can accomplish similar or the same things. You should always put the justification of the sleight BEFORE how proficient you are at it. Also though I don't dislike either move, and use the turnover pass in one of my favorite routines, these two involve obvious movements of the deck which need to be justified. Again, not trying to detract from the performance, which was very good, just stating my opinions. __________________ What you do in this world is a matter of no consequence. The question is, what can you make people believe you have done. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study In Scarlet

05-12-2011, 11:49 PM	#9
TheMisdirectingHand David Nguyen Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Rosemead, California Posts: 406	I can't change your opinion, I just personally love using it. Out of the two though, I would prefer the Classic Pass because of its convenience. Though every move has to have a purpose, the justification used by the performer could be interpreted differently by magicians and laypeople. The Turnover Pass is a beautifully crafted move with plenty of applications. I can think of a few effects where the Turnover Pass would be handy- but I am just starting out with magic, so my opinions are not based off of too much, only my own knowledge, so I am sorry if I offend you in anyway at all. __________________ "There are three types of people in this world; •People who talk and never do: The Lower Class •People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class •People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class." -Joseph Lau

05-14-2011, 09:56 AM	#10
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	When performing for laymen I think it's better to overjustify than to not do it at all. They know something is going to happen and they want to be sure the card is lost so I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Oh the times I was asked to show the top and bottom card.. it happens pretty often.. even when you fairly pushed the card in the middle. Oh, and nice ones, David!

05-14-2011, 10:43 AM	#11
Kieran Oloughlin Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 414	I use the table tap pass a lot but to it on my leg it is effetive and justified (except that the cards sometimes end up more meesy than when befor I tapped them)

05-14-2011, 12:02 PM	#12
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	uhm... what is the table pass? it is a pass that needs to be on a table to be done?( usually that's the meaning i'd resort to... but i actually know 2 passes that needs a table to work... and neither of them are named as such) __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

05-14-2011, 01:52 PM	#13
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	It's not a 'Table Pass' but a 'Table Tap Pass' a.k.a. the 'Hoffman's Pass'. Tapping the deck onto the table top or on you knee in order to square it up is basically the cover you use. For the rest it's just a 'Herrmann's Pass'.

05-15-2011, 06:33 AM	#14
Kieran Oloughlin Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 414	Yep thats the one