Complaints about Andrei Jikh and Theory11

Kelan · 08-18-2011, 06:55 PM

Hey Everyone!

A lot of people will probably know who Andrei Jikh is. He's an artist over at theory11 and was involved in a few projects with them (A few 1 on 1's and Gen. vol 1 and 2). He's talented and all, but theory 11 and Andrei changed the meaning of cardistry. Cardistry use to mean "Card magic". Theory11 and Andrei changed the meaning of Cardistry to flourishing/XCM. Zack (magiczack24) tried pointing this out to everyone, and it resulted in a huge "thing". If you want more info, here is the link: http://forums.theory11.com/showthrea...690-How-s-this

Andrei also stole flourishes from his mentor, De'vo. He also cheated in the World XCM Tournament. If you want info on this, here is the link: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthrea...ment-Cardistry

I also HATE theory11. They falsely advertise half of their stuff. Take "GPS" by Chris Kenner. They say it's completely impromptu, but it requires a massive set-up. (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/gps-chris-kenner.php)

Or "Invisible Reverse" (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/invis...ris-kenner.php)

Beware!!!

Also, here is a link to De'vo himself explaining the difference between cardistry and flourishing/XCM: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthrea...ards-clarified

KGaborMagic · 08-18-2011, 07:05 PM

Yeah, everybody hates theory11.

But I can't say anything to Andrei's story. De'vo likes to manipulate people, so I can't really believe what he says (although he's very talented and I respect his works). What I know that Andrei is one of the bests, and he is a very big inspiration for me.

And I use the word 'cardistry' as incredible things that one can do with a deck of cards (magic, gambling and flourishing aswell.)

Alexander · 08-18-2011, 07:27 PM

I never liked how theory11 deals with the descriptions of the effects they sell, and also how much their tricks cost. 5 bucks for self-working trick? Are you ****** up, dear theory11 owners?
UPD: What about Andrei, I do not know. I only know that he's very good at cardistry and he's russian, so get your hands off of him

Mark · 08-18-2011, 09:41 PM

I define cardistry the way it is today. It's just like the 'Cardini Change' which is nothing like Cardini's. Things tend to evolve in strange (almost magical) ways over time, so do those terms.

Also, 'XCM', as proud as De'vo and his Handlordz are of it, the term does NOT make sense. If there is one person in this world that does 'Xtreme Card Manipulation', it's Jeff McBride. Card manipulation to the extreme.

'Cardistry' on the other hand makes a lot more sense. Zack and the first publications put it as "the magical artistry of playing cards", true, but there is definitely no 'magic' in the word 'cardistry' so let it just be 'the artistry of playing cards'. It makes most sense of all terms.

On the De'vo topic, De'vo himself is probably the biggest manipulator in the world, not only for the flourishes but also for claiming them. He claims almost every single flourish out there and according to him, whatever his students came up with was actually created by him and stolen by them. I can only tell that De'vo himself is commonly the liar as for that. I don't know much about it in Andrei's case but I can only guess Andrei is just another victim.

And Theory11 is just bad. We've said it many times and we won't change our mind anytime soon. Their 'Death of the Double Undercut' is probably the most ridiculous of all. They cut the price after quite some people bought it and majorly complained about it (I believe T11 never sent a refund to any of them) and it still is "overpriced" for what you get.

It's not just Theory11 by the way, it's Ellusionist, it's The Blue Crown, it's Dan and Dave, it's Paper Crane Productions, even many independent artists, it's just the main magic industry today that's screwing it all up.

As for prices, I couldn't care less. Even if they would sell a 15-minute downloadable for $20, the art of magic still is way (if not too) open for the public these days. Then again, I'd rather have T11 sell $5 crap downloadables than I'd have anyone make a free, public tutorial for any trick. Cardistry is fine, there is no secret to that, and non-magical riddle/bar tricks would be approved by me too, but that's really about it.

But sure, Theory11 should stop lying to their customers! There is absolutely no reason for that other than hyping up things more than they have already been hyped. Telling the truth is not that difficult!

Albert · 08-18-2011, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

But sure, Theory11 should stop lying to their costumers! There is absolutely no reason for that other than hyping up things more than they have already been hyped. Telling the truth is not that difficult!

^OMG! First mistake found in Mark's forum posts! >.<

We all still love you though Mark

Kelan · 08-19-2011, 12:29 AM

Guys, keep in mind that Andrei said "F**k off De'vo".

That alone is enough for me to start a threah exposing him.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:26 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by kittydakat

Guys, keep in mind that Andrei said "F**k off De'vo".

That alone is enough for me to start a threah exposing him.

Andrei did this in one of his flourishing vids.

Oh, and guys, the link to De'vo coming out is now right and will lead you to his posts.

Fin · 08-19-2011, 01:30 AM

In-fighting, name calling, playground antics, stealing ideas. It's all very dramatic but is it really that important? I can't say I was ever planning on asking Andrei out to dinner so to be honest I couldn't care less what argument he may or may not be having with Devo. Getting involved in it all is no more useful to you or I than watching an episode of a bad soap on tv. To me it's just another distraction. If the parties involved weren't so famous we wouldn't be interested and it would be like all the other "argument" threads that fill so many forums. Devo did this, Andrei did that etc. The overriding question for me is "BUT WILL IT HELP ME IMPROVE MY CLASSIC PASS!!!!!"

If the answer is no then I'm onto the next thread...

Basically, what matters to you and me is what these guys put out to the community. How good are their dvd's going to be for my education as a magician if I decide to buy them? When Andrei last took a dump, what he had for breakfast, or even who he is swearing at on a forum is not at all interesting to me and really doesn't affect anyone except the involved parties. These "flame wars" and related drama's can end up wasting alot of people's time. Just a warning.

Call me a grump if you like, I will understand

Kelan · 08-19-2011, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fin

In-fighting, name calling, playground antics, stealing ideas. It's all very dramatic but is it really that important? I can't say I was ever planning on asking Andrei out to dinner so to be honest I couldn't care less what argument he may or may not be having with Devo. Getting involved in it all is no more useful to you or I than watching an episode of a bad soap on tv. To me it's just another distraction. If the parties involved weren't so famous we wouldn't be interested and it would be like all the other "argument" threads that fill so many forums. Devo did this, Andrei did that etc. The overriding question for me is "BUT WILL IT HELP ME IMPROVE MY CLASSIC PASS!!!!!"

If the answer is no then I'm onto the next thread...

Basically, what matters to you and me is what these guys put out to the community. How good are their dvd's going to be for my education as a magician if I decide to buy them? When Andrei last took a dump, what he had for breakfast, or even who he is swearing at on a forum is not at all interesting to me and really doesn't affect anyone except the involved parties. These "flame wars" and related drama's can end up wasting alot of people's time. Just a warning.

Call me a grump if you like, I will understand

Fin, if you aren't interested in this kinda thing, don't read it

Mark · 08-19-2011, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert

^OMG! First mistake found in Mark's forum posts! >.<

We all still love you though Mark

What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to?

JK. Edited.

Fin · 08-19-2011, 03:58 AM

Well said, Kittydakat. I didn't read nor follow any of the links.

I did however read this thread though as I had no idea what it was about, until I had read it

And I was just posting my opinion on what I'd call a "side-matter" that is often discussed when these sorts of things happen.. i.e. Whether anyone actually gains anything from it, and I don't think they do. Sorry if anyone found it offensive. I wasn't having a go at you for posting about it as I'm sure many will find it interesting. I personally also find it interesting to debate not so much "what was said" but "what is the point of it all and is there anything positive that can be gained from it". That is a valid question, for it could just be part of yet another "flame war" and we all know how productive those are. Anyone was welcome to enlighten me; I wasn't trying to say the thread was pointless or anything

TheMisdirectingHand · 08-19-2011, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to?

JK. Edited.

HURRRRR.

All typos aside. This doesn't really look like it has much reason. They're discussing the definition of a long-used term. The terms have different meanings to different people. It's like asking, "What is the difference between a double lift and a double flip?"

Fin · 08-19-2011, 05:24 AM

As for Theory 11 and whether they are any good that's purely down to opinions. I personally have bought several products from them including "Digital Dissolve" and I have been very pleased with the quality, price and speed of delivery. I'm sure there are yet more dramas behind the scenes that I don't know about, including apparently something about the origin of the digital dissolve gimmick/routine that was eventually sorted out, but purely from a customers point of view (which is what I am, afterall) they have done well by me, so far; and Jason England's recent cover-pass video I found incredibly helpful, so thanks Jason.

Others may have a different opinion of course and I respect that. There are lots of other shops to choose from. If anyone from the UK wants some "local" recommendations drop me a pm; I've tried many of them. Some take alot longer to deliver than others!

Albert · 08-19-2011, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

What? Didn't you know Theory11 has costum designers they lied to?

JK. Edited.

LOL! Double fail

Seeing that this is an 'exposed' thread, the point of the matter is that the person or group being exposed are in the wrong. Not necessarily what term it being misused, but why this wrong use of the term led to a magician or group worth mentioning as bad.

There are satisfied people out there with Andrei Jikh's releases and Theory 11's releases, but that's not the issue here. The point is that Andrei got to where he was in a way that does not deserve the respect he is currently receiving from other young flourishers or magicians, who most likely has no clue about such an event, such as me.

Being satisfied with Theory11's products is all good and is to be expected from a company running a business. However, what is unethical is what kittydakat pointed out: they misinform their consumers on some of their products and so there are dissatisfied people as well, and for good reasons too; something that can be avoided through this thread.

In summary: Andrei Jikh is not as respectable as he is known to be and Theory11 has a tendency to over-exaggerate some of their products in a good way, when it simply is not.

End of story, no?

Mark · 08-19-2011, 08:00 AM

I can't help that I woke up in the middle of the night, checked out the forums and posted that, and that a costume is 'kostuum' in Dutch, hence the typo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Št@®šÇrèÃM

End of story, no?

Pretty much.

Kelan · 08-19-2011, 02:35 PM

I hear ya Fin =)

Fin · 08-19-2011, 03:49 PM

Well said Albert.. I totally see the point now. I think I must have been in a rotten mood last night. Sorry everyone! I'm now off to whip myself with a beautiful "card whip" I made from invisible thread and some spare jokers

Albert · 08-19-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fin

Well said Albert.. I totally see the point now. I think I must have been in a rotten mood last night. Sorry everyone! I'm now off to whip myself with a beautiful "card whip" I made from invisible thread and some spare jokers

Well, at least we now know who the masochist here now

Travmang · 08-19-2011, 05:48 PM

LOL I love how Mark edited the quote box to call you Starscream in all those wierd letters LOL! I love it!

la0o9 · 08-19-2011, 11:55 PM

well, i kinda hate much of T11's products so there's no reason to drag on that( tho i did find the ones done by Jason England very helpful and i loved Andrei's 2 flourish DVDs- personally, i don't care where something originated unless i have to credit them, so as long as i still have good flourishes to learn, i'm good). But the "cardistry" stuff, i use it like i hear it: 2-handed non-magical manipulation of a deck of cards, whatever it was in the past, it doesn't matter now that it's in the present, since things change according to how people use it, and there's no reason to fret over a change.

Fin · 08-20-2011, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la0o9

and there's no reason to fret over a change.

But what about smooth360? Fret city! Keeps me awake many a night

08-18-2011, 06:55 PM	#1
Kelan kittydakat Join Date: May 2011 Location: USA Posts: 142	Complaints about Andrei Jikh and Theory11 Hey Everyone! A lot of people will probably know who Andrei Jikh is. He's an artist over at theory11 and was involved in a few projects with them (A few 1 on 1's and Gen. vol 1 and 2). He's talented and all, but theory 11 and Andrei changed the meaning of cardistry. Cardistry use to mean "Card magic". Theory11 and Andrei changed the meaning of Cardistry to flourishing/XCM. Zack (magiczack24) tried pointing this out to everyone, and it resulted in a huge "thing". If you want more info, here is the link: http://forums.theory11.com/showthrea...690-How-s-this Andrei also stole flourishes from his mentor, De'vo. He also cheated in the World XCM Tournament. If you want info on this, here is the link: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthrea...ment-Cardistry I also HATE theory11. They falsely advertise half of their stuff. Take "GPS" by Chris Kenner. They say it's completely impromptu, but it requires a massive set-up. (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/gps-chris-kenner.php) Or "Invisible Reverse" (http://www.theory11.com/tricks/invis...ris-kenner.php) Beware!!! Also, here is a link to De'vo himself explaining the difference between cardistry and flourishing/XCM: http://handlordz.com/forum/showthrea...ards-clarified

08-19-2011, 11:55 PM	#19
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	well, i kinda hate much of T11's products so there's no reason to drag on that( tho i did find the ones done by Jason England very helpful and i loved Andrei's 2 flourish DVDs- personally, i don't care where something originated unless i have to credit them, so as long as i still have good flourishes to learn, i'm good). But the "cardistry" stuff, i use it like i hear it: 2-handed non-magical manipulation of a deck of cards, whatever it was in the past, it doesn't matter now that it's in the present, since things change according to how people use it, and there's no reason to fret over a change. __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

08-18-2011, 07:05 PM	#2
KGaborMagic K. Gábor Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 229 Donor Score: 110	Yeah, everybody hates theory11. But I can't say anything to Andrei's story. De'vo likes to manipulate people, so I can't really believe what he says (although he's very talented and I respect his works). What I know that Andrei is one of the bests, and he is a very big inspiration for me. And I use the word 'cardistry' as incredible things that one can do with a deck of cards (magic, gambling and flourishing aswell.)

08-18-2011, 07:27 PM	#3
Alexander Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 68	I never liked how theory11 deals with the descriptions of the effects they sell, and also how much their tricks cost. 5 bucks for self-working trick? Are you ****** up, dear theory11 owners? UPD: What about Andrei, I do not know. I only know that he's very good at cardistry and he's russian, so get your hands off of him

08-18-2011, 09:41 PM	#4
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	I define cardistry the way it is today. It's just like the 'Cardini Change' which is nothing like Cardini's. Things tend to evolve in strange (almost magical) ways over time, so do those terms. Also, 'XCM', as proud as De'vo and his Handlordz are of it, the term does NOT make sense. If there is one person in this world that does 'Xtreme Card Manipulation', it's Jeff McBride. Card manipulation to the extreme. 'Cardistry' on the other hand makes a lot more sense. Zack and the first publications put it as "the magical artistry of playing cards", true, but there is definitely no 'magic' in the word 'cardistry' so let it just be 'the artistry of playing cards'. It makes most sense of all terms. On the De'vo topic, De'vo himself is probably the biggest manipulator in the world, not only for the flourishes but also for claiming them. He claims almost every single flourish out there and according to him, whatever his students came up with was actually created by him and stolen by them. I can only tell that De'vo himself is commonly the liar as for that. I don't know much about it in Andrei's case but I can only guess Andrei is just another victim. And Theory11 is just bad. We've said it many times and we won't change our mind anytime soon. Their 'Death of the Double Undercut' is probably the most ridiculous of all. They cut the price after quite some people bought it and majorly complained about it (I believe T11 never sent a refund to any of them) and it still is "overpriced" for what you get. It's not just Theory11 by the way, it's Ellusionist, it's The Blue Crown, it's Dan and Dave, it's Paper Crane Productions, even many independent artists, it's just the main magic industry today that's screwing it all up. As for prices, I couldn't care less. Even if they would sell a 15-minute downloadable for $20, the art of magic still is way (if not too) open for the public these days. Then again, I'd rather have T11 sell $5 crap downloadables than I'd have anyone make a free, public tutorial for any trick. Cardistry is fine, there is no secret to that, and non-magical riddle/bar tricks would be approved by me too, but that's really about it. But sure, Theory11 should stop lying to their customers! There is absolutely no reason for that other than hyping up things more than they have already been hyped. Telling the truth is not that difficult!

08-19-2011, 01:30 AM	#7
Fin Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 530	In-fighting, name calling, playground antics, stealing ideas. It's all very dramatic but is it really that important? I can't say I was ever planning on asking Andrei out to dinner so to be honest I couldn't care less what argument he may or may not be having with Devo. Getting involved in it all is no more useful to you or I than watching an episode of a bad soap on tv. To me it's just another distraction. If the parties involved weren't so famous we wouldn't be interested and it would be like all the other "argument" threads that fill so many forums. Devo did this, Andrei did that etc. The overriding question for me is "BUT WILL IT HELP ME IMPROVE MY CLASSIC PASS!!!!!" If the answer is no then I'm onto the next thread... Basically, what matters to you and me is what these guys put out to the community. How good are their dvd's going to be for my education as a magician if I decide to buy them? When Andrei last took a dump, what he had for breakfast, or even who he is swearing at on a forum is not at all interesting to me and really doesn't affect anyone except the involved parties. These "flame wars" and related drama's can end up wasting alot of people's time. Just a warning. Call me a grump if you like, I will understand

08-19-2011, 03:58 AM	#10
Fin Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 530	Well said, Kittydakat. I didn't read nor follow any of the links. I did however read this thread though as I had no idea what it was about, until I had read it And I was just posting my opinion on what I'd call a "side-matter" that is often discussed when these sorts of things happen.. i.e. Whether anyone actually gains anything from it, and I don't think they do. Sorry if anyone found it offensive. I wasn't having a go at you for posting about it as I'm sure many will find it interesting. I personally also find it interesting to debate not so much "what was said" but "what is the point of it all and is there anything positive that can be gained from it". That is a valid question, for it could just be part of yet another "flame war" and we all know how productive those are. Anyone was welcome to enlighten me; I wasn't trying to say the thread was pointless or anything

08-19-2011, 05:24 AM	#12
Fin Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 530	As for Theory 11 and whether they are any good that's purely down to opinions. I personally have bought several products from them including "Digital Dissolve" and I have been very pleased with the quality, price and speed of delivery. I'm sure there are yet more dramas behind the scenes that I don't know about, including apparently something about the origin of the digital dissolve gimmick/routine that was eventually sorted out, but purely from a customers point of view (which is what I am, afterall) they have done well by me, so far; and Jason England's recent cover-pass video I found incredibly helpful, so thanks Jason. Others may have a different opinion of course and I respect that. There are lots of other shops to choose from. If anyone from the UK wants some "local" recommendations drop me a pm; I've tried many of them. Some take alot longer to deliver than others!

08-19-2011, 02:35 PM	#15
Kelan kittydakat Join Date: May 2011 Location: USA Posts: 142	I hear ya Fin =)

08-19-2011, 03:49 PM	#16
Fin Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 530	Well said Albert.. I totally see the point now. I think I must have been in a rotten mood last night. Sorry everyone! I'm now off to whip myself with a beautiful "card whip" I made from invisible thread and some spare jokers

08-19-2011, 05:48 PM	#18
Travmang Pharaoh of Magicianry Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 249 Donor Score: 50	LOL I love how Mark edited the quote box to call you Starscream in all those wierd letters LOL! I love it!