Complaints about Andrei Jikh and Theory11 - Page 2

Kelan · 08-20-2011, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la0o9

there's no reason to fret over a change.

I disagree with that. Lets use the Elmsley count. Alex Elmsley created it back in the 1900's. What If I were to change it to the Kelan count? (My first name) The creator (Alex Elmsley) would be extremely annoyed (De'vo is) and it is just unethical. Not only that, now OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! people refer to it as cardistry, not flourishing/XCM. Put your self in De'vo's shoes and you would be extremely annoyed..

KGaborMagic · 08-20-2011, 08:12 AM

The problem is that De'Vo isn't the most honest person as well. He try to get credit for every single variation of older moves. He even make fake videos to prove it. And it's the money what motivates him, like in theor11. And if your problem is that XCM has been renamed to Cardistry, I think they have big differences. If you watch nowadays cardistry guys (like Tobias), you can see that they do things what De'Vo could never do. These are not De'Vo's one-handed displays, but two-handed 'smooth' cuts.
And I have to agree with la0o9, for example I don't know what I would do without Jason England's tutorials

la0o9 · 08-20-2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

But what about smooth360? Fret city! Keeps me awake many a night

first of all, that's not fretting, that's just obsessed
second, i KNEW someone would try that joke the moment i finished typing

Quote:

disagree with that. Lets use the Elmsley count. Alex Elmsley created it back in the 1900's. What If I were to change it to the Kelan count? (My first name) The creator (Alex Elmsley) would be extremely annoyed (De'vo is) and it is just unethical.

yes, that would certainly be true, but that's stealing an effect and calling it your own, while what Andrei supposedly( like, i know someone changed it, but who knows who? was it REALLY Andrei? can we really believe in De'vo?) did was changing how you use a word, that have been done time and time again, an example would be the word "gay", in the past, around 30 years ago, it was used to describe being happy, now you see what it means? another would be a Vietnamese word that now translates to "things related to finance", in the past it used to mean "to teach the people and thus saving the country" (there are probably more examples, i'm just not that good at literature), so is changing the meaning of a single word THAT big a problem? it's a language, it's bound to change, and since, like you said, 9000 people have already accepted it, there's no reason to go against those 9000 and keep to the old meaning, after all, "change is good"

Kelan · 08-20-2011, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la0o9

first of all, that's not fretting, that's just obsessed
second, i KNEW someone would try that joke the moment i finished typing

yes, that would certainly be true, but that's stealing an effect and calling it your own, while what Andrei supposedly( like, i know someone changed it, but who knows who? was it REALLY Andrei? can we really believe in De'vo?) did was changing how you use a word, that have been done time and time again, an example would be the word "gay", in the past, around 30 years ago, it was used to describe being happy, now you see what it means? another would be a Vietnamese word that now translates to "things related to finance", in the past it used to mean "to teach the people and thus saving the country" (there are probably more examples, i'm just not that good at literature), so is changing the meaning of a single word THAT big a problem? it's a language, it's bound to change, and since, like you said, 9000 people have already accepted it, there's no reason to go against those 9000 and keep to the old meaning, after all, "change is good"

"Gay" (Happy) and "Gay" (Homosexual) are two different words. There meanings haven't changed, they're just 2 different words. I'm not saying that a revolution should be started, just that a lot of people are being misinformed due to theory11 and Andre.

Mark · 08-20-2011, 09:22 PM

Errrr.. correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure 'gay' (happy) and 'gay' (homosexual) are the exact same word, having the same origin. From what I know, the word evolved from 'being free from any trouble and worry', which is what 'gay' was also used for. I believe it was used for prostitutes before it eventually got associated with homosexuals.

Anyhow, back on topic, I still couldn't care less about Theory11 and Andrei giving a different meaning to the word 'cardistry' as, like I have said, 'cardistry' makes a whole lot more sense than 'XCM'. To be honest, I am actually glad that they had the definition of the word change if it was indeed their action rather than someone else's.

Not saying they should mislead people, but I just couldn't care less about it in this particular case. It's like saying "That's so gay" when there is absolutely nothing homosexual (or funny) going on. As for the false advertisements, I'm still totally against those.

Kelan · 08-20-2011, 09:30 PM

I don't know Mark, I googled it and it said it was the same =0

Not totally sure though

Albert · 08-20-2011, 09:52 PM

This is what I found:

The word gay was associated with flamboyance and style, hence "Don we now our gay apparel" (from the song "Deck the Halls"), "gay nineties" (1890s) and "gay Paris" in the late 1800s.

Oscar Wilde was the epitome of gay. After it became publicly known that Wilde was homosexual in 1895, the word began to have a sexual undertone.

By the 1920s it was being used to describe homosexuals, mostly among homosexuals themselves or those sympathetic to homosexuals.

In the 1960s, the word became more commonly used among the general population and by the 1970s was the term was widely used to refer to homosexual people.

So in other words, it practically went from Gay (Happy) > Gay (Flamboyance + Happy) > Gay (homosexuality + Happy). So Mark seems to be right in the sense that they were one and the same word.

Mark · 08-20-2011, 10:11 PM

After some research on the word 'cardistry', I figured it wasn't actually Andrei's idea to distribute this term thus the explanation De'vo shares on his board is incorrect. Seems like he is just upset with Andrei cheating at the tournament. Blowing up stories like that only seems to be part of some anger management issues.

The term 'cardistry' (magical card artistry) was first used by Rusduck in the mid-20th century, but it wasn't used any often at all, only by Rusduck in his releases and around the same time it appeared in the Genii magazine. That seems about it. The only people that used it in the 50 following years were magicians who either knew the term from Rusduck or who read it in Genii. They passed it on, but because it was barely used, it never took off.

Richard Z from Decknique seems to be the first one who used the term 'cardistry' with another meaning. This took off like crazy thanks to the internet and the popularity of Decknique at the time. And here comes the fun and obvious part: he (like most others) did not know about the earlier publications with the term. He just reinvented it.

In March 2006, Decknique turned their 'Card Technique' forum into 'Cardistry'. In 2007, Paul Gordon released a book called 'Cardistry' too, over a year after the Decknique forum change. It's worth mentioning that the term with its new meaning was already widely used in 2006, before Theory11 even existed, let alone that Andrei was even part of Theory11 at the time.

So, since that part is out of the way, the only things remaining is Andrei cheating on the XCM tournement (I guess we'll have to take De'vo and the Handlordz their words for that) and Theory11's false advertisements (which we all disagree with).

s13zeTheDay · 08-23-2011, 05:19 PM

In my opinion changing the meaning of the word to suit the times (if that is in fact what happened) is no crime, especially if the new meaning sticks. Also, I'd say getting information about how Andrei has cheated and/or inconvenienced De'vo from De'vo's own post is not necessarily the most reliable source. It's like if I said that Mark stole all his effects from me then linked you to my own blog post saying the same thing

ItsMagicITellYou · 09-02-2011, 08:11 PM

honestly, its just words...i can understand why people are miffed but words get thrown around all over the place, which is why meanings change. I mean just go to a thesaurus, if you look up a word, then look up one of its synonyms, then one of ITS synonyms, and so on, you'll end up with a completely different meaning. and i know a lot of people dont like theory11 or ellusionist, but ive had many bad experiences with ellusionist and none with T11.

Albert · 09-02-2011, 09:27 PM

I guess some people are a bit more sensitive on this topic than others.

I've never purchased anything from Ellusionist or Theory 11, so I can't really comment on their products, except for that I don't personally find some of their releases too honest (i.e. corrupted description) or just not of money's worth.

--------------------------------------------------

Sept 10th, 2011

A few day's ago I've made a comment on The Wire's product Scribble by Calen Morelli:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert

Good one, but this seems to be Rick Merrill's (FISM 2006 winner) creation. So are we allowed to submit tricks without background research for originality?

I just checked back today to see that T11 has completely ignored both the comments and rating (which I gave as 3 stars). Seems like they just erase anything that isn't favourable to them. Don't know if they did this before, but this is pretty ridiculous. Since they are only taking in good ratings, who knows how misleading The Wire will be? If this isn't for pure profit intentions, I wonder what isn't?

MattJay124 · 09-10-2011, 06:41 PM

Oh my gosh! That argument was unbelievable. I also despise Theory11. I bought GPS by Chris Kenner (I regret that now!) because they said it was completely impromptu and I was fustrated when I purchased it and it had a HUGE setup. I hate Theory11. Everything about it. The forums are horrible and full of critics. SwarxeneggerMagic gets a load of unnecessery critism from them. Gosh, I really do hate them.

la0o9 · 09-10-2011, 10:51 PM

well, to be honest, there's no unnecessary criticism, there's always room for improvement and criticism help you find them instead of finding them yourself, but there is constructive criticism and non-constructive criticism, the latter is just simply bashing the person without saying anything about the performance that will actually help

Kayne · 09-11-2011, 07:02 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if T11 started to sell pants, hats, shoes, shoe laces, and some nutritious apples and bananas

Travmang · 09-11-2011, 07:06 PM

T11 sports cars. Who else is buying one? My sports car is gonna be purple

Kayne · 09-11-2011, 07:29 PM

Theory 11 furniture.
THEORY 11 HOUSES!
THEORY 11 WAFFLES AND PANCAKES!!!! THE HORROR!
And slightly minimal awesomeness :P

Mark · 09-11-2011, 08:51 PM

Ugh, stop giving them ideas!

Oh... and please stop spamming. This is a serious topic.

Alexander · 09-19-2011, 06:35 PM

Who the f*ck cares how to call such a beautiful artform (besides De'Vo)? That's just stupid. "Cardistry" is a nice sounding term, so let it be.

la0o9 · 09-19-2011, 10:47 PM

@Alex: well... everyone? if something really is worth your time, it needs to have it's own identity, which means, a name.

Albert · 09-20-2011, 01:58 AM

Alex, please use a nicer language in this forum. We don't tolerate any sincerely impolite way of speaking since that could offend others. It's okay to express your opinions and there is no answer to this question we are discussing, but we can say it in a nicer way.

08-20-2011, 09:52 PM	#27
Albert DarkSleightZ Artist Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 671 Donor Score: 110	This is what I found: The word gay was associated with flamboyance and style, hence "Don we now our gay apparel" (from the song "Deck the Halls"), "gay nineties" (1890s) and "gay Paris" in the late 1800s. Oscar Wilde was the epitome of gay. After it became publicly known that Wilde was homosexual in 1895, the word began to have a sexual undertone. By the 1920s it was being used to describe homosexuals, mostly among homosexuals themselves or those sympathetic to homosexuals. In the 1960s, the word became more commonly used among the general population and by the 1970s was the term was widely used to refer to homosexual people. So in other words, it practically went from Gay (Happy) > Gay (Flamboyance + Happy) > Gay (homosexuality + Happy). So Mark seems to be right in the sense that they were one and the same word. __________________ "Bluffing is an important act to all strategies." - Lelouch Lamperouge

08-23-2011, 05:19 PM	#29
s13zeTheDay Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 150	In my opinion changing the meaning of the word to suit the times (if that is in fact what happened) is no crime, especially if the new meaning sticks. Also, I'd say getting information about how Andrei has cheated and/or inconvenienced De'vo from De'vo's own post is not necessarily the most reliable source. It's like if I said that Mark stole all his effects from me then linked you to my own blog post saying the same thing __________________ What you do in this world is a matter of no consequence. The question is, what can you make people believe you have done. --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, A Study In Scarlet

09-10-2011, 10:51 PM	#33
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	well, to be honest, there's no unnecessary criticism, there's always room for improvement and criticism help you find them instead of finding them yourself, but there is constructive criticism and non-constructive criticism, the latter is just simply bashing the person without saying anything about the performance that will actually help __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

09-19-2011, 10:47 PM	#39
la0o9 Move monkey atm Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Not where you'd want to go :P Posts: 747	@Alex: well... everyone? if something really is worth your time, it needs to have it's own identity, which means, a name. __________________ "Doubt isn't the same as saying people are bad, it simply means you actually care, 100% trust is nothing more than ignorance"~ Akiyama Shinichi- Liar Game "It's not the destination but the road to it that is worth the trip" "Be careful what you wish for... it might just come true"~ old saying "It's a small world, but only relatively" "Reality is not the world, it is the way humankind depicts the world, thus when you alter a person's way of seeing the world, you alter reality itself"

09-20-2011, 01:58 AM	#40
Albert DarkSleightZ Artist Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Canada Posts: 671 Donor Score: 110	Alex, please use a nicer language in this forum. We don't tolerate any sincerely impolite way of speaking since that could offend others. It's okay to express your opinions and there is no answer to this question we are discussing, but we can say it in a nicer way. __________________ "Bluffing is an important act to all strategies." - Lelouch Lamperouge

08-20-2011, 08:12 AM	#22
KGaborMagic K. Gábor Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 229 Donor Score: 110	The problem is that De'Vo isn't the most honest person as well. He try to get credit for every single variation of older moves. He even make fake videos to prove it. And it's the money what motivates him, like in theor11. And if your problem is that XCM has been renamed to Cardistry, I think they have big differences. If you watch nowadays cardistry guys (like Tobias), you can see that they do things what De'Vo could never do. These are not De'Vo's one-handed displays, but two-handed 'smooth' cuts. And I have to agree with la0o9, for example I don't know what I would do without Jason England's tutorials

08-20-2011, 09:22 PM	#25
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	Errrr.. correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure 'gay' (happy) and 'gay' (homosexual) are the exact same word, having the same origin. From what I know, the word evolved from 'being free from any trouble and worry', which is what 'gay' was also used for. I believe it was used for prostitutes before it eventually got associated with homosexuals. Anyhow, back on topic, I still couldn't care less about Theory11 and Andrei giving a different meaning to the word 'cardistry' as, like I have said, 'cardistry' makes a whole lot more sense than 'XCM'. To be honest, I am actually glad that they had the definition of the word change if it was indeed their action rather than someone else's. Not saying they should mislead people, but I just couldn't care less about it in this particular case. It's like saying "That's so gay" when there is absolutely nothing homosexual (or funny) going on. As for the false advertisements, I'm still totally against those.

08-20-2011, 09:30 PM	#26
Kelan kittydakat Join Date: May 2011 Location: USA Posts: 142	I don't know Mark, I googled it and it said it was the same =0 Not totally sure though

08-20-2011, 10:11 PM	#28
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	After some research on the word 'cardistry', I figured it wasn't actually Andrei's idea to distribute this term thus the explanation De'vo shares on his board is incorrect. Seems like he is just upset with Andrei cheating at the tournament. Blowing up stories like that only seems to be part of some anger management issues. The term 'cardistry' (magical card artistry) was first used by Rusduck in the mid-20th century, but it wasn't used any often at all, only by Rusduck in his releases and around the same time it appeared in the Genii magazine. That seems about it. The only people that used it in the 50 following years were magicians who either knew the term from Rusduck or who read it in Genii. They passed it on, but because it was barely used, it never took off. Richard Z from Decknique seems to be the first one who used the term 'cardistry' with another meaning. This took off like crazy thanks to the internet and the popularity of Decknique at the time. And here comes the fun and obvious part: he (like most others) did not know about the earlier publications with the term. He just reinvented it. In March 2006, Decknique turned their 'Card Technique' forum into 'Cardistry'. In 2007, Paul Gordon released a book called 'Cardistry' too, over a year after the Decknique forum change. It's worth mentioning that the term with its new meaning was already widely used in 2006, before Theory11 even existed, let alone that Andrei was even part of Theory11 at the time. So, since that part is out of the way, the only things remaining is Andrei cheating on the XCM tournement (I guess we'll have to take De'vo and the Handlordz their words for that) and Theory11's false advertisements (which we all disagree with).

09-02-2011, 08:11 PM	#30
ItsMagicITellYou ~Z~ Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Planet earth, you? Posts: 57	honestly, its just words...i can understand why people are miffed but words get thrown around all over the place, which is why meanings change. I mean just go to a thesaurus, if you look up a word, then look up one of its synonyms, then one of ITS synonyms, and so on, you'll end up with a completely different meaning. and i know a lot of people dont like theory11 or ellusionist, but ive had many bad experiences with ellusionist and none with T11.

09-10-2011, 06:41 PM	#32
MattJay124 Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 3	Oh my gosh! That argument was unbelievable. I also despise Theory11. I bought GPS by Chris Kenner (I regret that now!) because they said it was completely impromptu and I was fustrated when I purchased it and it had a HUGE setup. I hate Theory11. Everything about it. The forums are horrible and full of critics. SwarxeneggerMagic gets a load of unnecessery critism from them. Gosh, I really do hate them.

09-11-2011, 07:02 PM	#34
Kayne Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: a Posts: 30	I wouldn't be surprised if T11 started to sell pants, hats, shoes, shoe laces, and some nutritious apples and bananas

09-11-2011, 07:06 PM	#35
Travmang Pharaoh of Magicianry Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 249 Donor Score: 50	T11 sports cars. Who else is buying one? My sports car is gonna be purple

09-11-2011, 07:29 PM	#36
Kayne Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: a Posts: 30	Theory 11 furniture. THEORY 11 HOUSES! THEORY 11 WAFFLES AND PANCAKES!!!! THE HORROR! And slightly minimal awesomeness :P

09-11-2011, 08:51 PM	#37
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	Ugh, stop giving them ideas! Oh... and please stop spamming. This is a serious topic.

09-19-2011, 06:35 PM	#38
Alexander Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 68	Who the f*ck cares how to call such a beautiful artform (besides De'Vo)? That's just stupid. "Cardistry" is a nice sounding term, so let it be.