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Old 12-05-2010, 12:53 PM   #41
MeandmagiC
 
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ok, wait a minute, you set great store by marketing but you do not listen to your customers?????

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Is it me or are there a lot of contradictions in what you just said?
it is not only you, i see them too
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:37 PM   #42
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Jonathan, I would like to quote something from Marketing 101. Apparently you are familiar with this but I don't think you got it. It's what Marketing 101 starts off with:

"Most people mistakenly identify marketing with selling and promotion only. While selling and promoting are a part of marketing, they are not the most important part."

I bet you that you could place yourself much more effectively on the online market if you'd change your current strategies and handle things differently. This would get you less haters and more costumers. In Web 2.0, haters are the thing companies and individuals want the least because they could draw back costumers and potential ones from buying your products.

Costumers aren't only those who pay you for what you do, it is everyone who makes use of your services. Watching your videos and commenting to them is part of that. Eventually they may buy something from you but your current strategies doesn't help with that.

Just trying to help.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Is it me or are there a lot of contradictions in what you just said?

About half of the people who watched the video and voted apparently didn't like the video. These votes represent the viewer's opinion. Usually the comments do that as well but these are manipulated because of the filtering.

If you don't look at comments you can't approve or disapprove them either. It would save you a lot of time if you would disable the comments and ratings because you think they are worthless.

I myself see them as a tell if something is good or not. If almost half of the voters disliked my video, I obviously didn't do a good job. If you still think that it's a good video, you will never learn till someone with 40 years of experience walks up to you and tells you about it. But the majority of those magicians isn't even active on the internet.
Most people don't even think to vote. They may have loved the video but just didn't bother to vote. I never vote on videos. You could have 1000 people view a video. If 40 people vote 20 good 20 bad it doesn't tell you anything. Because you don't know what the other 960 people thought that didn't vote!
I don't need YouTube ratings to know I'm a good performer. I know I am because I get paid very well, my audiences love what I do. The video of mine that got 20 good and 20 bad votes is a great video I don't need the votes to tell me that. The video was difficult to film. I'm very happy with how it turned out.

What contradictions did I make? I think you simply misunderstood. When I said I don't look at comments or ratings I was talking about videos that I watch of other people. I don't judge their video by their comments or ratings. I watch the video and decide for myself. The only way that votes would matter is if everyone that viewed had to vote. Most people don't even know you can.

As far as cultural differences go I have only talked with you and Rich and you are both from the Netherlands. I found certain comments insulting and Rich didn't think they were. So there certainly could be some cultural differences there.

---------- Post added at 08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:10 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
Jonathan, I would like to quote something from Marketing 101. Apparently you are familiar with this but I don't think you got it. It's what Marketing 101 starts off with:

"Most people mistakenly identify marketing with selling and promotion only. While selling and promoting are a part of marketing, they are not the most important part."

I bet you that you could place yourself much more effectively on the online market if you'd change your current strategies and handle things differently. This would get you less haters and more costumers. In Web 2.0, haters are the thing companies and individuals want the least because they could draw back costumers and potential ones from buying your products.

Costumers aren't only those who pay you for what you do, it is everyone who makes use of your services. Watching your videos and commenting to them is part of that. Eventually they may buy something from you but your current strategies doesn't help with that.

Just trying to help.
Mark,

I'm doing just fine. I make very good money. My tutorials sell very well. I'm very happy with my success. It's funny that you think you need to help me.
I'm seeing a pattern here. You guys just seem to enjoy telling people what to do. That's pretty much what all your posts are. It would be understandable if you guys were an authority on something.

---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeandmagiC View Post
ok, wait a minute, you set great store by marketing but you do not listen to your customers?????

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------



it is not only you, i see them too
Well I'm listening. What are they?

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------

Mark,

Marketing 101 is an expression it doesn't mean the actual text. It simply refers to basic marketing. Its common in USA to just put "101" after something when you mean it is a basic principal of that subject. "Oh that's Bowling 101" would be referring to a basic rule of bowling. A rule everyone should know. Understand?

---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeandmagiC View Post
ok, wait a minute, you set great store by marketing but you do not listen to your customers?????

---------- Post added at 01:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------



it is not only you, i see them too

What does "you set great store by marketing" mean?
Your English is not correct.
When did I say I don't listen to my customers? I get feedback on my tutorials all the time. Always positive. I also get feedback from my audiences all the time. Always positive.

What I said is ...I don't look at the comments and ratings of other peoples videos. I decide wether their video is good by watching it. Their ratings and comments do not influence my decision. This is how most people view videos that I know.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:11 PM   #44
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That most people don't vote doesn't mean that the ratings don't represent them. You could easily compare the votes of the one video with those of the next video which has about as many views but 38 positive and 4 negative ratings. That's a lot more positive. Because of the similar amount of views and ratings you can say that only half of the people actually liked it. I bet that the people who voted to the one video also voted to the other one.

At presidential elections not everyone is voting either. That doesn't mean that the votes aren't valid and should not be listened to. Of course, in the US it's slightly different because of the rigged system in which the democrats need more votes than the republicans in order to win. On YouTube that isn't the case nor is there anything to win in this case.

You do not need the ratings to know that you are a good performer but you certainly should use them to see what people like so you could improve on the things they like the least. The fact that you call the video great although a lot of your viewers don't like it makes you extremely ignorant towards your own audience. Do you think any of them appreciates that?

In your latest two posts you literally said that comments and ratings do not mean anything and you say that it doesn't matter whether it is to someone else's video or to your own. That is a huge contradiction for someone who puts comments by just awesome magicians on his poster and approves just good comments to his videos. None of those have everyone's voice heard so I agree that your comments indeed don't say anything. The ratings do have many more voices heard and so would represent your online audience's opinions much better.

There are many more contradictions but I could start a whole new thread if I would name them all. Another one would be that you used Marketing 101 to make something clear but when I told you its essentials you put yourself in defense. Then why did you use it to back up yourself in first place? It doesn't matter if it's from the text or not because the essentials of Marketing (101) in general is that promoting and selling aren't the most important things in the world of marketing.

If only I would enjoy this discussion. It's going nowhere because you keep defending yourself for absolutely no reason because there isn't anything to defend yourself from. Unlike Richard I don't even appreciate it that you are giving the main post a massive ground for the whole world to see it's all true. Joining this discussion to defend yourself was the stupidest thing to do and it only adds more value to the main post.

And I am sure that there aren't any cultural differences for being respectful if you compare Chicago to the Netherlands. This is a matter of personal differences. I am sure that you would stand alone or with an extreme minority no matter what forum this would be posted on and no matter in what country it's hosted.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:16 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
That most people don't vote doesn't mean that the ratings don't represent them. You could easily compare the votes of the one video with those of the next video which has about as many views but 38 positive and 4 negative ratings. That's a lot more positive. Because of the similar amount of views and ratings you can say that only half of the people actually liked it. I bet that the people who voted to the one video also voted to the other one.

At presidential elections not everyone is voting either. That doesn't mean that the votes aren't valid and should not be listened to. Of course, in the US it's slightly different because of the rigged system in which the democrats need more votes than the republicans in order to win. On YouTube that isn't the case nor is there anything to win in this case.

You do not need the ratings to know that you are a good performer but you certainly should use them to see what people like so you could improve on the things they like the least. The fact that you call the video great although a lot of your viewers don't like it makes you extremely ignorant towards your own audience. Do you think any of them appreciates that?

In your latest two posts you literally said that comments and ratings do not mean anything and you say that it doesn't matter whether it is to someone else's video or to your own. That is a huge contradiction for someone who puts comments by just awesome magicians on his poster and approves just good comments to his videos. None of those have everyone's voice heard so I agree that your comments indeed don't say anything. The ratings do have many more voices heard and so would represent your online audience's opinions much better.

There are many more contradictions but I could start a whole new thread if I would name them all. Another one would be that you used Marketing 101 to make something clear but when I told you its essentials you put yourself in defense. Then why did you use it to back up yourself in first place? It doesn't matter if it's from the text or not because the essentials of Marketing (101) in general is that promoting and selling aren't the most important things in the world of marketing.

If only I would enjoy this discussion. It's going nowhere because you keep defending yourself for absolutely no reason because there isn't anything to defend yourself from. Unlike Richard I don't even appreciate it that you are giving the main post a massive ground for the whole world to see it's all true. Joining this discussion to defend yourself was the stupidest thing to do and it only adds more value to the main post.

And I am sure that there aren't any cultural differences for being respectful if you compare Chicago to the Netherlands. This is a matter of personal differences. I am sure that you would stand alone or with an extreme minority no matter what forum this would be posted on and no matter in what country it's hosted.
Your English is very hard to understand. This was a very confusing post. It's clear you are not understanding me as well. I think we will have to end this discussion.
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Old 12-05-2010, 08:54 PM   #46
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Hello Jonathan,

You present many points, but there are a few things I must point out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
As far as cultural differences go I have only talked with you and Rich and you are both from the Netherlands. I found certain comments insulting and Rich didn't think they were. So there certainly could be some cultural differences there.
First off, why is cultural difference involved with one's ability to interpret comments? I am an American, and so are you. I find none of these comments to be insulting to the very least. You may have grown up learning a different way of thinking and philosophy compared to us. Mark, Richard, you, and I, we may be from different parts of this world, but we are all human beings, who speak the same language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
2. I judge the advice first by itself. Is it good or bad advice? Using my 25 years experience usually this is quite clear.
You use your twenty-five years of experience to judge if the given advice is good or bad? Overall, it is just advice, would you not say? Though it is up to you to judge the advice, what difference does it make if others read it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
2. I also look at the tone in which the comment is made.
" Your double lift is terrible!" - DELETED
" Why do you use that DL?" - APPROVED

3. Any comments with exposure in them are - DELETED
Two and three are both contradictory. Why would you approve exposure? More so, what is the point of deleting exposure if you already do so yourself? In some of your videos, I noticed that annotations are placed. For example, in one of your effects, you perform the Card to Wallet effect, and you post an annotation that specifically shows what is needed to perform the effect, should you delete that annotation since it contains exposure? I will let you ponder on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Only a handful of people think I have a bad attitude. Those who have met me know that I don't. The people who think I have a bad attitude have all had their comment removed for one reason or another and they didn't like it so now I'm labeled as not able to take criticism and having a bad attitude. that doesn't even make sense.

But I do think it funny that when people criticize my work and then they get all bent out of shape when I criticize their comment.
What? Can't handle criticism?
Before you arrived to this forum, I did not think you carried a bad attitude, but it is not in my place to judge you.

Also, if you think that we cannot handle criticism, please look at yourself, before you ask us. I find it funny that you delete comments depending on the tone of it. Doing that is the same as getting mad at someone for saying, "Hey, that was a very good performance!", instead of, "I think that was a great performance."

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
You started this thread by insulting me. The title of the thread clearly states that you think that I am someone that is ruining magic. This is laughable to say the least and clearly typical hater nonsense. Haters love to compliment you then insult you as if that makes it ok. Yes you have made many accusations about me in which you claim I am hurting magic. None of which you have proven. Do I filter my comments. Yes! Does this hurt magic in any way. No! What it does do is protects me from the haters like yourself. You claim I need to have the last word when it is clearly you. I felt you were 25 because that is the age you act.
I came here just to poke my head around and see what was going on and I found just what I thought. A tiny amateur blog run by someone who thinks he has the right to insult, belittle and pass judgement on people he has never met.

You can tell a true professional when they never need to put down others or judge, or insult, or knit pick peoples work to make themselves feel adequate. They simply put all their energy into doing good work and they let that speak for itself. I feel I do good work and I believe it shows in my videos and performances and in the way I help others and treat others. What I don't have time for is negative people, hurtful people, dishonest people, disrespectful people. I think this is what I teach young magicians is they don't have to put up with those people. The more successful you get the more haters you get. It just goes with the territory. You haven't made it in this business until you have haters. You haven't made it until people hate your success so much that they need to devote an entire thread to it in a blog.
Richard did not start this thread to insult you. Since when did insulting someone include praise, and positive comments? The thread was started merely by request of the many people that had asked him to. If you do not have time for negative people, hurtful people, dishonest people, or disrespectful people, then there really is no reason to make anymore contact with the world, seeing as how we do not live in a perfect world. In many other businesses, it is the same as magic. Music, acting, even painting, there are the groups of the admirers, and the haters. The only thing we can do is go with the flow, there is no use complaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Your English is very hard to understand. This was a very confusing post. It's clear you are not understanding me as well. I think we will have to end this discussion.
Why are you poking at his English? Is it because he is not from America? People from around the world learn other languages to communicate with one another, and someone like you putting them down because of their inability to type, or speak as well as you can might really hurt them. That in itself is not right. Or maybe it is because you want to end this with the final word.


That is all I needed to point out, how you interpret my words, love or hate, is up to you.
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•People who talk and never do: The Lower Class

•People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class

•People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class

A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class."

-Joseph Lau
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Old 12-06-2010, 01:02 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMisdirectingHand View Post
Hello Jonathan,

You present many points, but there are a few things I must point out.




First off, why is cultural difference involved with one's ability to interpret comments? I am an American, and so are you. I find none of these comments to be insulting to the very least. You may have grown up learning a different way of thinking and philosophy compared to us. Mark, Richard, you, and I, we may be from different parts of this world, but we are all human beings, who speak the same language.



You use your twenty-five years of experience to judge if the given advice is good or bad? Overall, it is just advice, would you not say? Though it is up to you to judge the advice, what difference does it make if others read it?

Its bad advice.Why would I approve bad advice or incorrect comments or accusations?



Two and three are both contradictory. Why would you approve exposure? More so, what is the point of deleting exposure if you already do so yourself? In some of your videos, I noticed that annotations are placed. For example, in one of your effects, you perform the Card to Wallet effect, and you post an annotation that specifically shows what is needed to perform the effect, should you delete that annotation since it contains exposure? I will let you ponder on that.

DL is not exposure. double lift is

Before you arrived to this forum, I did not think you carried a bad attitude, but it is not in my place to judge you.

Also, if you think that we cannot handle criticism, please look at yourself, before you ask us. I find it funny that you delete comments depending on the tone of it. Doing that is the same as getting mad at someone for saying, "Hey, that was a very good performance!", instead of, "I think that was a great performance."

not the same at all. I delete what I feel are bad or inappropriate comments

Richard did not start this thread to insult you. Since when did insulting someone include praise, and positive comments? The thread was started merely by request of the many people that had asked him to. If you do not have time for negative people, hurtful people, dishonest people, or disrespectful people, then there really is no reason to make anymore contact with the world, seeing as how we do not live in a perfect world. In many other businesses, it is the same as magic. Music, acting, even painting, there are the groups of the admirers, and the haters. The only thing we can do is go with the flow, there is no use complaining.

The title to this thread claims I am ruining magic. Richard chose to put me under that heading. Thats an insult. Then he complimented and insulted me in his post. The compliments do not lessen the insults

Why are you poking at his English? Is it because he is not from America? People from around the world learn other languages to communicate with one another, and someone like you putting them down because of their inability to type, or speak as well as you can might really hurt them. That in itself is not right. Or maybe it is because you want to end this with the final word.

We were not understanding each other. When trying to convey specific thoughts if one word is incorrect it can make interpretation difficult

That is all I needed to point out, how you interpret my words, love or hate, is up to you.
Jonathan Kamm My resonse are in red
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Old 12-06-2010, 04:44 AM   #48
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You can't say that Vincent's use of the word 'lift' was exposure and then say that 'DL' isn't exposure. 'DL' is semi-exposure because every magician knows what it means yet spectators don't. If a magician asks you how something was done and you just say "(it's a) DL" they don't need further explanation and so it is exposure. The word 'lift' isn't because it's exactly what everyone is seeing: you lifting a card.

You are the only one who openly exposed it in this thread and on YouTube by selling tutorials for it which you named the way everyone considers it to be exposure. Your ACR even has an annotation over the entire video which links to it and with you telling that you used it in the video. And if you search for the keywords 'double lift' in your video search engine it even shows the ACR between all the tutorials you sell. A lot of exposure going on there. Are you sure you don't support it?

We thought this was the only correct forum to post this kind of thread in. Reason is that it wasn't all that different from the other threads in this forum. Richard originally decided to post this in the 'General Discussions' or 'Public Magic Discussions'. Another Admin then moved it to this more proper place with our approval which in the end meant that the forum name had to be changed as it was slightly too negative as mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

You say Richard insulted you in his post. Can you please list some of the insults so we can see what exactly you were insulted by? Thanks.
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:35 AM   #49
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INSULTS PART 1

This is where inappropriate actions of magicians and magic services are exposed to the public so you know what to look out for.
The above topic heading is still insulting claiming that I am in some way misbehaving and need to be exposed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
For the past month, our inboxes and messengers have been seriously flooding over on this subject. A lot of you apparently wondered about our opinions on Jonathan Kamm and so we started doing research on this magician. To complete this, Jonathan himself sent us a PM about a week ago out of the blue. What a coincidence! Mark passed this message on to me because apparently he had been having some issues with him in the past and so I was able to make up my mind about Jonathan Kamm, his magic and his personality. I think I succeeded in the fairest way possible. To keep it clean, this article will only go over the facts as for all negativity.

First of all the first sentence suggests that there are possibly hundreds or thousands of people writing in having issues with me. When the reality is probably a handful or even the same people multiple times. This is insulting and meant to make me look like some terrible person. Then Mark is mentioned as having issues with me. What issues? They are not explained so people assume the worst. This is unfair and in result insulting

MAGIC
Let's start off with his magic. He is a great magician and especially a brilliant performer. He has a great audience control and presentation which must have to do with the fact that he has been performing the art for over twenty years.

On the sidenote, his video comments would make you believe that he truly is one of the very best sleight of hand artists in the world and that he has mastered every single sleight he does. True, he is good and certainly handles cards well enough to fool laymen, but when comparing his sleight of hand to people who truly mastered the sleights he uses, there still is a big gap. Usually we would not make a deal out of that because he sure is talented and it all works fine in real life, but this seems to be an important thing regarding the subject.

He insinuates that my Sleight of hand fools layman but its not good enough when compared to other people who have mastered sleight of hand. This is a huge insult and and out right lie. Especially when I have testimonials like the following to back me up.


ATTITUDE
Now this is where all trouble starts. Those who love Jonathan, love him for his magic. Those who hate Jonathan, hate him for his attitude.

Actually they hate me because I deleted their comments. Then in anger they accused me of having a bad attitude or that I can't handle criticism. None of which is true and therefor insulting. They feel they can go up to anyone anytime and simple tell them what to do and that person must agree or be labeled with "can't handle criticism" or having "a bad attitude". I simply didn't agree or didn't approve of the comment. If a person feels the need to criticize then they have to be mature and handle the possible rejection of their criticism. If someone rejects your criticism you have no right to complain about it.

Discussions and false assumptions
Jonathan always wants to have the final words in a discussion. This makes it impossible to discuss anything with him because he thinks he stands correct on everything he says including false assumptions he tends to make. This is something I noticed in the messages he and I sent back and forth because every reply I needed to correct him one way or the other. As soon as I corrected him, he would choose something different to discuss and to make false assumptions on.

This is based on Rich assuming he was correct. I believe the discussion was about Marks videos being edited and the fact that he can not perform them live. I have still not seen Mark perform any of his effects live. Therefor my theory is correct until proven it is not. So Rich's claims that I must have the last word are incorrect and therefor insulting. I was merely correct in my assumption of Marks effects and Rich had no proof otherwise.

An example:


Criticism
Jonathan does not seem to take criticism very well. This is what I have heard from at least five of you and it also explains why his video comments usually are very positive. Apparently when he does not like a comment, any comment including criticism for that matter, he will ignore and remove it. We do that with comments that include magic exposure but that is morally wrong. Criticism is not quite like that because it allows you to improve and become better at what you do. There is always room for improvement, so by ignoring and removing those comments you block yourself from any improvements.

Woah! now it's 5 people. You would of had us believe before complaints were "flooding" in. If I am legitimately doing something wrong in my videos the courteous and respectful way to tell me is through private message. Throwing complaints and criticism on someones video is like being at a restaurant and standing up to announce to the entire restaurant that there was a fly in your soup. The proper, respectful way to handle that situation is to take a manager aside quietly and let them know what the problem is. The same with a video if there is a problem you talk to the creator privately. This shows you respect them and are wanting to help them. If you post on the public comments you are wanting to hurt them. I have never gotten good advice through the public comments section. It's always hater nonsense. But I have gotten some good advice privately.

This does not just count for his magic, but also for his videos. For instance, he recently switched to a 20-second introduction and whoever would tell him that twenty seconds is too long for a two minute video would get a reply along the lines of "I doubt you don't have enough time" or even a full explanation on how professional his introduction is.

There is nothing wrong with a 20 second introduction. Besides mine was hilarious and most people know how to click past it if they want to. I have videos with longer and shorter introductions it makes no difference. When I watch other peoples videos I am not bothered by long introductions. So my response was correct to the original comment and Rich's assumption that this shows me as not taking criticism well is incorrect and therefor insulting. The original comment was petty but hey if that is all they could find wrong with my video then Im doing a great job. [/I]
...continued below
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Old 12-06-2010, 08:38 AM   #50
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INSULTS PART 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
Feedback from magicians & quoting statistics
Someone else showed me a conversation in which the following sentences said by Jonathan grabbed my attention:

I can see what he is coming from by saying lay audiences should be the ones to listen to because I personally agree on that, but to ignore things other magicians say does not seem to be the correct thing to do at all. Magicians know how it works so they can also say what exactly is wrong with it, if there indeed is something wrong. Laymen would or should never be able to tell that.

Actually very few amateurs "know how it works" There is a night a day difference between performing in front of strangers on a day to day basis and performing for your webcam at home. I have plenty of friends that I listen to that are actual performers. They "know how it works". If a working pro has a problem they will know by audiences reactions and they will know how to fix it themselves.

Let me talk a little about this. The most important time for a magician not to listen to other amateur magicians is in the beginning. Your fellow magicians are always going to tell you that move isn't good enough or I saw you flash or I know what you did. This is terribly disheartening. Many young magicians will never think they are good enough and never take the step to working in front of people. It's important to find a mentor who actually is working or has worked in the real world to listen to. I remember one of the first things my mentor told me was you are better off staying away from clubs and contests. The majority of guys who join a club that is where they will stay. They will never become professional and never move forward. They will get obsessed with always having to fool their magician friends. This creates terrible bad attitudes and bad habits in young magicians. The things that fool magicians are usually very boring to layman and the good layman effects rarely fool magicians. So you will be heading the wrong direction hanging around other magicians. I'm not saying never do it. just keep it to a minimum. I only joined my first club 3 years ago and its only because now I am at a level where I am not influenced by other magicians. But the club I am in is mainly guys I took classes with some twenty years ago so we are all good friends and have good attitudes about magic.


Then again, does he really never care about what magicians think about his magic? Testimonials beg to differ.

Its funny when you reach the pro level the only people who try to criticize you or tell you what to do are the amateurs.. Your other pro friends would never do that. But there is a lot of advice shared amongst Pros its just that we ask each other for advice.

Also, on his poster he quoted "Most Viewed", "Highest Rated" and "5 stars". Those are statistic-related things which should rely on facts rather than on quotes, and he obviously is not quoting anyone. It are lies instead.

This is a pure insult but has already been talked about and proven not to be a lie.

Marketing
In the end, it is all marketing. Unlike DarkSleightZ, Jonathan obviously took the commercial highway. He mentions the tutorials he is selling in every video he makes and he puts it in annotations whenever he does the sleights he teaches in those tutorials as well. I would consider this to be ruining the magic or even being actual exposure, but he probably realizes that most people watching his tutorials are magicians who know these basics already anyways.

Good Grief. I guess every pro on the planet is ruining magic then. I make my living from magic. That is very hard to do. you have to get money where ever you can. I took the commercial highway? …no I took the professional highway.


CONCLUSION
So to answer the question "What do you think of Jonathan Kamm?" I will have to go with the facts: Jonathan Kamm is a very talented magic performer who makes himself look better than he actually is by removing all criticism and bad comments.
This is another insult claiming that I somehow fool my clients into thinking I am better then I am. As a grown up I make my own decisions. I would expect most people are the same way.They are not influenced by the comments. They watch the video or watch me live and decide for themselves.

This article is in no way meant to hate on Jonathan Kamm. It is just to expose the truth and should function as a good lesson for every single one of us because there are a lot of people like this. But the most respected ones are those who allow both positive and negative feedback, and who are completely honest to themselves and to the rest of the world.

More insults, apparently because I remove bad comments from my videos I am no longer a respected magician. It also insinuates that I am not honest. I am completely within my rights to approve whatever comments I want on my videos. Its like saying that your neighbor is dishonest because he only puts out the good Christmas lights and the ones he disapproves of he keeps in the basement.

A special thanks goes out to everyone contacting us about Jonathan, and especially the people who helped making this article possible.
Gee thanks!
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #51
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I am sure that Richard would reply to this but since he is not online right now I guess I can too since I am the one who asked the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
The above topic heading is still insulting claiming that I am in some way misbehaving and need to be exposed
There is absolutely no insult in the forum description. That you find it insulting is because you are the person in question. That means that there is no way that you can say if it's a legit description or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
First of all the first sentence suggests that there are possibly hundreds or thousands of people writing in having issues with me. When the reality is probably a handful or even the same people multiple times. This is insulting and meant to make me look like some terrible person. Then Mark is mentioned as having issues with me. What issues? They are not explained so people assume the worst. This is unfair and in result insulting
I believe you totally misread the first sentence. Richard clearly says: "A lot of you apparently wondered about our opinions on Jonathan Kamm and so we started doing research on this magician." There is absolutely nothing bad mentioned nor that anyone who contacted us did mention anything bad. Most of them even didn't. If the outcome of the research would have been positive this would have been a positive thread about you. The fact that I asked Richard to do this is because he was totally unbiased.

I didn't even mention the issues to Richard to be sure he would be doing an honest research. Only when he was done I told him I have had trouble with you and that that was the reason why I actually asked him to do this. When he posted it I told him everything in details. The post is the most honest thing one could get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
He insinuates that my Sleight of hand fools layman but its not good enough when compared to other people who have mastered sleight of hand. This is a huge insult and and out right lie. Especially when I have testimonials like the following to back me up.
He insinuates that you are a great magician and definitely good enough to fool your audiences. But when comparing your sleight of hand to the people who have truly mastered those sleights like for instance Akira Fujii on the Pass there is no way to say you are at the same level as for that sleight. Performance-wise I'd say that you are better and teaching-wise you may be better too but that has nothing to do with how good you are on the sleight although all the comments would make one believe so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Actually they hate me because I deleted their comments. Then in anger they accused me of having a bad attitude or that I can't handle criticism. None of which is true and therefor insulting. They feel they can go up to anyone anytime and simple tell them what to do and that person must agree or be labeled with "can't handle criticism" or having "a bad attitude". I simply didn't agree or didn't approve of the comment. If a person feels the need to criticize then they have to be mature and handle the possible rejection of their criticism. If someone rejects your criticism you have no right to complain about it.
No one ever told you what to do. They just made suggestions to make the best out of it. It is obvious that you can't handle criticism and have a bad attitude if you don't approve comments that don't do any harm to your magic or to magic in general. Whenever you'd approve negative comments you'd try to slay them and make yourself look like the best. Then if someone would react to that in a way you don't like as well you don't approve that comment or would try to slay it too. It goes on forever and you keep confirming that you can't actually handle criticism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
This is based on Rich assuming he was correct. I believe the discussion was about Marks videos being edited and the fact that he can not perform them live. I have still not seen Mark perform any of his effects live. Therefor my theory is correct until proven it is not. So Rich's claims that I must have the last word are incorrect and therefor insulting. I was merely correct in my assumption of Marks effects and Rich had no proof otherwise.
Even whenever it wasn't about my magic being edited or not Richard had to correct you on other things. I read through all of the messages and it's truly amazing how you think you could just say things without any ground of truth and to get away with it. I already proved myself right. When will you actually prove yourself right on this thread not being the real deal? Your replies only confirm everything. Obviously it's the real deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Woah! now it's 5 people. You would of had us believe before complaints were "flooding" in. If I am legitimately doing something wrong in my videos the courteous and respectful way to tell me is through private message. Throwing complaints and criticism on someones video is like being at a restaurant and standing up to announce to the entire restaurant that there was a fly in your soup. The proper, respectful way to handle that situation is to take a manager aside quietly and let them know what the problem is. The same with a video if there is a problem you talk to the creator privately. This shows you respect them and are wanting to help them. If you post on the public comments you are wanting to hurt them. I have never gotten good advice through the public comments section. It's always hater nonsense. But I have gotten some good advice privately.
I believe five people actually told us about your criticism handling. This is not even half of the people who contacted us. The rest to be said could be found somewhere above in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
There is nothing wrong with a 20 second introduction. Besides mine was hilarious and most people know how to click past it if they want to. I have videos with longer and shorter introductions it makes no difference. When I watch other peoples videos I am not bothered by long introductions. So my response was correct to the original comment and Rich's assumption that this shows me as not taking criticism well is incorrect and therefor insulting. The original comment was petty but hey if that is all they could find wrong with my video then Im doing a great job.
We have seen a whole lot of comments of people giving constructive feedback on it. You changed it to a shorter introduction for a reason didn't you? Not that you ever publicly agreed with any of the constructive feedback towards it.
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Old 12-06-2010, 10:04 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Actually very few amateurs "know how it works" There is a night a day difference between performing in front of strangers on a day to day basis and performing for your webcam at home. I have plenty of friends that I listen to that are actual performers. They "know how it works". If a working pro has a problem they will know by audiences reactions and they will know how to fix it themselves.

Let me talk a little about this. The most important time for a magician not to listen to other amateur magicians is in the beginning. Your fellow magicians are always going to tell you that move isn't good enough or I saw you flash or I know what you did. This is terribly disheartening. Many young magicians will never think they are good enough and never take the step to working in front of people. It's important to find a mentor who actually is working or has worked in the real world to listen to. I remember one of the first things my mentor told me was you are better off staying away from clubs and contests. The majority of guys who join a club that is where they will stay. They will never become professional and never move forward. They will get obsessed with always having to fool their magician friends. This creates terrible bad attitudes and bad habits in young magicians. The things that fool magicians are usually very boring to layman and the good layman effects rarely fool magicians. So you will be heading the wrong direction hanging around other magicians. I'm not saying never do it. just keep it to a minimum. I only joined my first club 3 years ago and its only because now I am at a level where I am not influenced by other magicians. But the club I am in is mainly guys I took classes with some twenty years ago so we are all good friends and have good attitudes about magic.
I agree that magic clubs may be where you'll stay for the rest of your life if you don't take time to go out there on your own. But to not listen to other amateur magicians is absolutely hilarious. I don't know what amateur magicians you have had to deal in your past if any at all but nowadays amateur magicians are only commenting extremely positive on each other rather than extremely negative and causing sorts of traumas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Its funny when you reach the pro level the only people who try to criticize you or tell you what to do are the amateurs.. Your other pro friends would never do that. But there is a lot of advice shared amongst Pros its just that we ask each other for advice.
You never confirmed if everyone who has been giving you criticism actually was an amateur. You only assume that. You also assume that I am an amateur magician which is much more of an insult than anything Richard said about you. Instead of getting all upset about it I just laugh it away.

The fact that your professional magician friends would never criticize you is one of the reasons why there is a huge gap between amateurs plus potentional ones and professional magicians plus those who think they are professional and somehow got accepted to this group. You can see it at every magic forum out there. It's all about the elite members. Some very potentional amateur magicians who skillwise may be better than many of the pros will get rejected.

It's funny to see that there is some sort of code that professional magicians never give bad comments to each other. Of course their comments may still be honest but that fact makes it extremely doubtful. Thank God there are forums made by amateur magicians who actually give their honest opinions on effects. Every now and then even professionals join these forums just for the sake of getting the most honest feedback possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
This is a pure insult but has already been talked about and proven not to be a lie.
Richard actually proved you very wrong on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Good Grief. I guess every pro on the planet is ruining magic then. I make my living from magic. That is very hard to do. you have to get money where ever you can. I took the commercial highway? …no I took the professional highway.
Maybe if you would understand Marketing 101 better it would not be so hard to make a living from it. How come we can make more than enough with it without performing full-time like you do? Cultural difference?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
This is another insult claiming that I somehow fool my clients into thinking I am better then I am. As a grown up I make my own decisions. I would expect most people are the same way.They are not influenced by the comments. They watch the video or watch me live and decide for themselves.
By removing feedback and by approving just the comments you like you made yourself look better than you are. There is nothing to be said against that. Of course there may be some people like you but as soon as there is a single person that thinks differently you do make yourself look better. Let alone if there are more like in your case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
More insults, apparently because I remove bad comments from my videos I am no longer a respected magician. It also insinuates that I am not honest. I am completely within my rights to approve whatever comments I want on my videos. Its like saying that your neighbor is dishonest because he only puts out the good Christmas lights and the ones he disapproves of he keeps in the basement.
He never said that you aren't respected. He said that you could be more respected or "most respected" if you would allow both positive and negative feedback and if you'd be honest to yourself and to the rest of the world. Definitely no insults right there.

Solved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kammagic
Gee thanks!
No problem.
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Old 12-06-2010, 12:28 PM   #53
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It is not possible that every comment I made is wrong yet you just disagreed with everything I said. This shows me that your goal was simply to disagree and not give an honest answer.
Also I'm telling you how I feel.I felt insulted by the things I mentioned. They are my personal feelings which you asked me for. You telling me they were not insults does not make them any less hurtful. You can't tell someone how they feel. Just disagreeing with everything someone says is no way to communicate. I think Rich would tell you that.


---------- Post added at 06:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:05 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
You can't say that Vincent's use of the word 'lift' was exposure and then say that 'DL' isn't exposure. 'DL' is semi-exposure because every magician knows what it means yet spectators don't. If a magician asks you how something was done and you just say "(it's a) DL" they don't need further explanation and so it is exposure. The word 'lift' isn't because it's exactly what everyone is seeing: you lifting a card.

The word was "Double lift" vs. DL. I only care about exposure to layman. Any competent magician should be able to figure out any magic effect by watching a video performance. I don't care about exposure to a magician. Layman do not know DL but they do know what double lift means. So I was correct in double lift being exposure and DL not. But it doesn't matter because we already talked about comments having no value to people watching a video. If the comments made a difference then nobody would dislike my videos because all my comments are positive. Comments don't influence you guys. Even with all my positives you guys still dislike my videos. So I guess you guys don't let comments influence you either. Thank you for proving my point.

You are the only one who openly exposed it in this thread and on YouTube by selling tutorials for it which you named the way everyone considers it to be exposure. Your ACR even has an annotation over the entire video which links to it and with you telling that you used it in the video. And if you search for the keywords 'double lift' in your video search engine it even shows the ACR between all the tutorials you sell. A lot of exposure going on there. Are you sure you don't support it?
You really can't tell me what I think exposure is. I don't want it in my comment section but I don't mind it in the tags. No layman will look there. Why is it I don't care what your views on exposure are but you seem to be very aggressive about telling me what I should think exposure is.You have no right telling me what to think.But it does show what kind of person you are. Your true colors are shining through.


We thought this was the only correct forum to post this kind of thread in. Reason is that it wasn't all that different from the other threads in this forum. Richard originally decided to post this in the 'General Discussions' or 'Public Magic Discussions'. Another Admin then moved it to this more proper place with our approval which in the end meant that the forum name had to be changed as it was slightly too negative as mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

You say Richard insulted you in his post. Can you please list some of the insults so we can see what exactly you were insulted by? Thanks.
Jonathan Kamm
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:24 PM   #54
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Jonathan Kamm was banned from this forum board. By ignoring the 'Everyone is equal' rule for over five times after being warned, ignoring the 'No public magic exposure allowed' rule at least once, and accusing a well respected forumer of false advertising twice, Jonathan has shown not to be worth his membership. It is a pity that someone of his caliber could not keep up with the simple and obvious forum rules, and could not resist posting continuously on how good he thinks he is for absolutely no reason.
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:26 PM   #55
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I didn't even disagree on everything (read: "I agree that.."). I wrote my honest thoughts on what you said and unfortunately I couldn't agree with all that much. But many of the things fall back on one and the same issue so it looks much more than it actually is. I agreed on everything I didn't write about in my replies or whenever I actually said I agreed with you on something. And I don't blame you for the part about that professional magicians never give bad comments to each other because that's just how it is and it's not up to any individual to change that.

Of course you feel insulted as this thread is about you and it's not as positive as you had hoped for. I could feel insulted about every negative thread about me on the internet too but instead I like to listen and see what I could do to make things better. I hooked up with a lot of my haters and skeptics and even took time to show them my tricks live and eventually I even taught them some of the effects which you strongly believe to be fake and/or video editing. Some of my biggest haters and skeptics now are some of my best online friends and not just because I taught them stuff.

I listened very well to what you had to say about the exposure. My full reply was all-and-only based on what you said yourself in this thread. You considered Vincent's comment to be exposure because of the word 'lift' but you don't consider 'DL' to be exposure. I just explained in what way 'DL' is exposure and it what way it's not and that considering 'lift' to be exposure just doesn't make any sense. As you didn't reply to that I don't know whether you agree on that now or still don't.

Because you put exposure in your video title rather than in the ACR video's tags I was wondering why that wouldn't be considered to be exposure. We named our release 'DL Deluxe' just for that matter and it worked just fine too.

EDIT: What a horrible timing on the ban! I wasn't done with this discussion yet.
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:19 PM   #56
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Rules are rules. If we let him free to ignore them, we have to let everyone free to do so. We can deal with it now but later when these forums are a lot more active, we really can't.

It adds to the misbehavior, does it not?
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Old 12-07-2010, 12:01 AM   #57
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You guys decided to finish this while I was at school. I was not done either.
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"There are three types of people in this world;

•People who talk and never do: The Lower Class

•People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class

•People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class

A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class."

-Joseph Lau
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:31 AM   #58
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hahhaa in his latest video he promotes his friends invisible deck handling for 45 seconds and does not perform it in the video. in it he says he does that trick because of that handling again but in the comments he put: "I don't use any stacks, systems, set ups or gimmics. At least I prefer not to."

he doesnt know what he is saying hahahaa
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Old 12-29-2010, 11:39 AM   #59
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mega fail xD

--------------------------------------------------

Jonathan is on the loose again. he uploaded a video of an impromptu haunted deck. read the comments!
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Old 03-07-2011, 03:15 PM   #60
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I find it funny that he says that holding the cards differently and the cards moving differently has anything to do with the method. Both Derren and Jonathan should've been able to do the 'Impromptu Haunted Deck' by placing the deck on the back of their hands as well, but that wouldn't have made any difference as for their methods.
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