Opinions on lying in a youtube video

[therippedtormentor]

I have recently discovered a skilled youtube magician who said "the deck may be shuffled by a spectator" and when i figured out the trick, it could not really be shuffled. Is this okay so that people will not figure out the trick?

[Albert]

There are supporters and haters to that question.
1) Supporters: Don't want people figuring out the trick - especially magicians. Non-magicians will be fooled by the false shuffles anyways, so they aren't much of a threat or of importance to make oneself feel superior to others;
2) Haters: Hates hearing lies about tricks - They would instead say something true in a way that could be intentionally, but psychologically misleading (an example could be "The deck could be shuffled". They didn't specify that it could be done by the spectator, but they can do it themselves, so they aren't lying. However, they give off the vibe that it's fair. No one can really criticize him/her for that statement as it is true for the magician).

Depending on the situation, you have to lie in a trick, but that is only excusable for laymen. When magicians/hobbyists/hecklers find out that he is lying, then his reputation will plummet down as a real lier, not entertainers. It's somewhat hard to explain, but I hope that gives you an idea of what I mean.

[Rokk]

I have to disagree with Albert. Lying is a part of magic, no doubt! And the only real difference between an acceptable lie and an unacceptable lie is wether it is believable or not. At least in performance.
However, if someone tells a lie in an advertisment for a magic trick he tries to sell, then it is false advertisement and illegal.
And one more thing to, even if the guy in the youtube-video used a method where the deck couldn't be shuffled in the video, that doesn't mean that he can't achieve the same effect with a shuffled deck. If the spectator wants to shuffle the deck, he simply uses another method.

[Albert]

I never said lying isn't part of magic. Magicians often lie and have to when performing a trick; that's why I said "Depending on the situation, you have to lie in a trick".

The situation that therippertormentor explained is a situation where that guy is trying to make himself bigger and better in front of other magicians, not just laymen. The motive is just not the same. He's not doing it simply to fool laymen. He is lying to fool magicians in an unethical way. That's what really differentiates between a lie that you should do and shouldn't do.

Also, referring to using another method to achieve the same effect really would be pointless to bring up here, since we are only talking about that one method used by that guy who lied. Regardless, lying in a fashion to make oneself look like a badass magician is what I consider unacceptable, which in this case, we are also not talking about magic on sale that is advertised falsely. I think it's wrong to bring up these kind of alternate situations as it could lead the topic astray from what really matters.

[Alexander]

It's kind of funny, because if that guy who made a false statment (or so you think) did completely false shuffle, then IN THAT CASE it's a lie. If he did semi-false shuffle retaining the selection in desired place in the deck, then it can be considered as a shuffle (because the order of the cards DID change). If he was to say that he doesn't know where the selection is in the deck after he did those shuffles, then you can call him a liar. So yeah, the points of view can differ.

[Mark]

To me, it's about how necessary the lie is. If it doesn't add anything to the performance, I consider it a bad thing, a lie. Also, video descriptions shouldn't contain any lies because again, they don't add anything. If you don't want to say that a trick isn't impromptu, then just leave it out, nor say that it actually is impromptu because then you are a liar.

Magicians don't lie, magicians manipulate. They would lie as soon as they call themselves psychics or true wizards.

[KGaborMagic]

Originally Posted by Mark

Magicians don't lie, magicians manipulate.

I don't agree with this statement. Every magician is a liar. We lie everyday to our spectators, but this is for the purpose of entertaining, and they know this well (only hecklers can't accept it.) But lying on youtube to magicians is unacceptable. They don't do it for entertaining, just for the purpose to look superior to other magicians.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by robandbob55

I don't agree with this statement. Every magician is a liar. We lie everyday to our spectators, but this is for the purpose of entertaining, and they know this well (only hecklers can't accept it.) But lying on youtube to magicians is unacceptable. They don't do it for entertaining, just for the purpose to look superior to other magicians.

The way you think about it is exactly the reason why some people think magic tutorials are the way to go, because they see magicians as liars and think liars should be exposed. Truth is that as soon as you call yourself a magician, you can't be called a liar while performing, for the sake you are making clear you are doing tricks and illusions and that nothing is as it seems.

I think we are on the same line though, because you just said that you don't agree with magicians making themselves look superior to other magicians, which is basically what I said to disagree with too. If you are lying outside of the performances, or in the performance while there is absolutely no purpose to it (e.g. Criss Angel saying there are no camera tricks or stooges), you are actually a liar.

[la0o9]

i am on robandbob's side, i think that magicians lie every single day at every single performance, manipulate is a word you only use when you're affecting some THING, when you say something to a human to mess with a person's reality, that's lying

[Mark]

Originally Posted by la0o9

i am on robandbob's side, i think that magicians lie every single day at every single performance, manipulate is a word you only use when you're affecting some THING, when you say something to a human to mess with a person's reality, that's lying

I have never heard that definition before. I'm pretty sure one can manipulate thoughts rather than just things.

[MeandmagiC]

I look at it from this perspective:

to manipulate (an audience): to make the audience believe you are not doing something when you are doing something. OR the other way round. You are manipulating their reality.

to lie: has in my opinion nothing to do with the audience. lieing is what magicians do when they sell their product as impromptu, when it is actually not impromptu.
that has nothing to do with manipulating realities, it is just lying, since they are talking to other magicians.

[Albert]

Originally Posted by la0o9

i am on robandbob's side, i think that magicians lie every single day at every single performance, manipulate is a word you only use when you're affecting some THING, when you say something to a human to mess with a person's reality, that's lying

I was actually going to say that magicians lie every day before, but I refrained from saying that since that is NOT true.

The way I perform, I either manipulate or make lies a reality. What does that mean?

For example of a lie, let's say you controlled a person's card to the top. They ask "Can I shuffle the deck?" If I say 'Yes' and let them shuffle the deck, then it's true: They could shuffle the deck and I could still perform miracles. If I say 'Yes' and resist them from shuffling the deck (not simply just not giving the deck to be shuffled, but declining their request), then at that point people will know that you are both a fraud and a lier (unless you come up with an amazing excuse).

For example of manipulation, let's go back to the same scenario. If the spectators ask "Can I shuffle the deck?", you could palm the card and give the deck out to them and say 'Yes'. At this point, you are telling the truth regardless of if they do shuffle it or not. This is manipulation, while at the same time telling the truth. Just the fact that you offer to let them shuffle the deck is good enough proof for some people and they say 'nah, it's okay, continue with your trick'.

I don't know if other people lie their butt off in their performances, but when you lie and there are simple ways to confirm that lie, you should never do it if you want to keep your reputation. Good magicians = manipulate, true that!

[Mark]

I thought I put a clear area between manipulating and lying, but I don't like the grey area in what you said, Albert.
Would "you can be sure your card is in the middle" be lying or manipulating according to that?

[Kelan]

IMO, lying to your spectators are fine, but lying to magicians aren't. It's not okay to make "Claims" either (saying a trick is ungimmicked when it's not, saying it's impromptu when it's not, etc.). Monkeyman822 is a perfect example of why it isn't okay. I'm guessing we were all somewhat disappointed/frustrated that he wasn't telling the truth. It's also annoying when they stick with their lie and don't apologize or tell the truth.


It's even more annoying when people aren't honest towards their contest entries. This includes if they say if it's impromptu, it's not set up, etc. This means that people can win contests if the contest holder didn't catch the gimmick/set up, which is totally wrong. Or let's use "Fool Us" by Penn and Teller. If someone were to lie about their trick and get through, they have a chance of winning a ton of money and get to perform for Penn and Teller (this is extremely unlikely to happen though, they've been in the industry for such a long time).

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Kelan

Or let's use "Fool Us" by Penn and Teller. If someone were to lie about their trick and get through, they have a chance of winning a ton of money and get to perform for Penn and Teller (this is extremely unlikely to happen though, they've been in the industry for such a long time).

Magicians are the easiest to fool though. And they aren't much of close up magicians. You can see in the show that they lack a lot of knowledge as for that kind of magic.

But I agree with what you said!

[KGaborMagic]

It doesn't matter how we call it, lying or manipulating, but when we say "your card is not on top", and even if we show it with a 'DL', we're not telling the truth. But that's not the point of the topic

[Albert]

Originally Posted by Mark

I thought I put a clear area between manipulating and lying, but I don't like the grey area in what you said, Albert.
Would "you can be sure your card is in the middle" be lying or manipulating according to that?

According to my example, seeing that the card is on top in reality, that would be lying.

I say manipulating is when you make your spectators believe in something else without you having to directly say it.

But also taking into consideration what Mark had said, there absolutely times when we have to lie, like in an ACR plot, "(Do a DL) your card is on top. If I put your card in the middle (that's a lie since that's another card going into the middle), and I snap, you card comes to the top (another lie, since it was always on the top)"

OMG I'm confused... I don't even know what I'm saying anymore >.<;

But going back to what you said Mark, if you claim yourself a magician (which is okay according to you), why can't one claim to be a psychic if they are good at mind reading?

[TheMisdirectingHand]

Magicians manipulate the audience with their moves and words. It is like buying a product and saying, "Yes, it works on everything in this category!" When you use it however, it does not work for your specific piece of equipment.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Albert

But going back to what you said Mark, if you claim yourself a magician (which is okay according to you), why can't one claim to be a psychic if they are good at mind reading?

I suggest you to look up the definition of the words. In no dictionary, a magician is described only as someone who does actual paranormal stuff. It's said to be someone who performs illusions and sleight of hand as well, which is a much more common usage nowadays. A psychic however, is always someone who performs paranormal activities, unlike a mentalist.

Basically, if you are a magician, you are saying your words and actions during the performances can not be trusted. Would you call a liar a liar when he says he lies?

Another thing is that lying has a negative feeling about it, which is another reason for me calling it manipulating whenever magicians and mentalists do it when performing, similar to mime artists for instance. But basically, if you call it lying you say that everyone who exposes magic for the reason that they think all liars should be exposed, is actually right.

Guys, I really enjoy reading your posts and arguments.^^