Opinions on lying in a youtube video

[Rokk]

Originally Posted by Albert

NO! Of course not! Magic is all about entertaining people, not just deceiving and lying. Deceptions and lies are used to entertain in magic; however, if one's only motive in doing magic is just to lie and deceive people, no offense, but I would never ever accept that person as a magician. That's just pathetic and a waste of a life. The difference is minimal, but those are difference that change a person's entire perspective on things. Here's an analogy "It doesn't matter how much money you stole. It's the fact that you stole it that matters.".

Let me rephrase myself: "Magic is about faking abilities we don't have for the sake of entertainment. "
But I agree with you: those who don't use deception as entertainment usually use it to get money and are called con artists. Other use it to gather a group of followers and are usually called cult leaders. And those are unethical because they inflict harm unto others.
And that is where I draw my line between a good lie and a bad lie: if it harms other people.
But lying in a youtubevideo doesn't really harm anyone, does it? At least as long as you dont sell the trick.
That analogy I do not understand. Maybe what you meant is: "It doesn't matter how you got the money, ethically or not. It's the fact that you got the money that matters." Is it correct? If so, I agree with you. But we seems to have different viewpoints on what is "unethical"

What do you mean "it's not magic in that way which we tend to expect magic to be like"? Using terms like meta-magic to try and justify one's unethical action is not justifiable in my opinion. You ask 'why not broaden the definition of magic?' But, what's the definition? Unless that's cleared up, I can't say anything about that. No offense at all Rokk, but what you just said above really doesn't convince me at all. I don't care how crappy one's DLs are, or how terrible he palms a card; magic is magic. There are other categories of magic, but they branch off from the idea of magic as a whole..

Here is a suggestion of a definition of magic: "Entertainment by deception". Btw you should also give your definition.
Magic is a certain kind of entertainment. With this comes certain kind of things that are associated with magic (and some that is not). Like cards, coins, thimbles,etc. Also different methods that magicians use, like sleight of hand, misdirection, psychology, etc. And also for who the magic is performed, which is usually in front of laymen. And that is how we tend to expect magic to be like. But these things easily becomes clichés, certainly there are other things you can perform magic with, and certainly there are other methods that can be used other then those we usually use. As well as magic doesn't have to be performed for laymen. And that is what I mean by "broadening the art"; to perform new kinds of magic. I don't mean that we should broaden magic to involve unethical things.
And maybe meta-magic isn't a very good word (sounds a little pretentious, doesn't it? ). Maybe "Magicians fooler" is a better word? I dont know...

True, I'm no mindreader, but I don't think I'm too far off. Given that Tom explicitly described this as a new and advanced palming technique, what do you think he tried to accomplish? If he really just wanted to perform his new move like it really was magic, he wouldn't say something like "it's a new palming technique I made". Almost every magician wants to eventually contribute to the art and make their names known. What's the easiest way to do that? Lie your ass off. This lying is not for performing; it's for faking an invention that was never invented. What for? I'm sure the entertainment value was not the biggest factor. If that's the case, what do you think he wanted to accomplish?.

I don't think you are to far off either. But let's suppose for the sake of argument that he did it purely for entertainment. Would his lying still be unethical? If he tries to sell the technuiqe: undoubtly yes! If he sells it as a trick? Nah... Maybe. But as far as I know he hasn't tried to sell it.
What I think he wanted to accomplish? Supposing he is innocent it would be to fascinate magicians. Supposing he is guilty it would be to get admiration.
Btw by the definition of magic I have given above his trick IS just magic for anyone who was entertained by it.

Here's a perfect example. Do you ever perform for a spectator and say "Look! This move I'm using here is an advanced palming technique".

Yes I actually might do that! In the trick "Invisible palm" that is essentially what you are saying. That tricks works the same way as "Enigma": You try to convince the spectators you can do a real impossible move, you do an overly suspicous move and then you use a different method to achieve what the alleged move does. The only difference is that "invisible palm" is used on laymen but "Enigma" is used to fool magicians. That seems clear to me since no layman, I think, would be interested in a new palming technuiqe.

It was really interesting to discuss with you Albert, but we live in different time-zones and I have to go to bed. If I said anything that upset you I appologize. We just seem to have diametrically different viewpoints on some things. I hope we can continue our discussion tomorrow.

tl;dr. Lying is only unethical if it harms people.