Fism

Arnau · 03-22-2012, 05:54 PM

I think Mark should participate in the FISM

Mark · 03-22-2012, 06:54 PM

Oh, don't get me started on this. I totally have something against the FISM as an organization, including but not limited to their contest.

Don't know if it's fine to say too much about that in public though...

IdioticGod · 03-22-2012, 07:03 PM

It is fine. Please, elaborate.

(you know, if you want to. No pressure

)

Arnau · 03-22-2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Oh, don't get me started on this. I totally have something against the FISM as an organization, including but not limited to their contest.

Don't know if it's fine to say too much about that in public though...

I'm very curious to know why. I honestly believe you'd do very well. I mean really, from what I've seen you're the magician with the best ideas, and the best performances ever by far.

Mark · 03-22-2012, 08:52 PM

Okay.. hmmm.. how to put this..

Let me just say the FISM is an organization that would like to rule the entire world of magic (feel free to translate that to the most extreme form of ownership).

As for the contest in particular, first off you are completely depending on a FISM Member Society (magic club) and/or its president in order to join the competition, and you will still have to pay quite a lot of money for the registration of this relatively exclusive contest (150 contestants in total). On top of that, in order to win you are completely depending on the jury, who is generally made up out of the all-knowing kind of magician and for that is impossible to judge everything in a fair manner (which is why Lennart Green was disqualified in 1988 for very wrong reasons and the jury didn't reconsider their decision. Mr Green got back in 1991 with the same act and won the competition). And although every now and then there are notable winners, calling the winners "the world champion of magic" or even "the best magicians in the world" is completely unjustified for those reasons.

That's basically the short version.

Arnau · 03-22-2012, 10:47 PM

OK, I understand what you mean. I had always thought it would be very cool to win

Mark · 03-22-2012, 11:26 PM

I think it's every magician's dream, until they really look into it. Basically, you pay your own prize (in case you would win), by paying contribution to a magic club and/or by paying for the registration. And you don't even know what the prizes are till they are about to be presented to the winners. Also, if you don't win or even if you end second, you won't get all that much attention, even though you did an incredible job.

For an organization that says to want to help develop and elevate the art of magic, to judge in a close-minded fashion and to disqualify people or give them lower scores merely because they think these artists used stooges (without further investigation, Lennart Green wasn't the only one, and not the last one as well) is just outrageous.

Maybe we should start our own FISM-like organization and make it more like the Olympics, more transparant and based on facts instead of merely personal opinions, and more open to everyone who deserves it.

Fin · 03-23-2012, 06:16 AM

I'm pretty new to magic so I may be wrong, but from the impression I've got, winning at Fism is like,.. well, winning at Fism. It's a bubble within itself. It's like starting up a martial arts company, getting in a load of talent, and then declaring the winner "world champion" (See the UFC). He's not "world" champion, of course; but it sounds good for the company, and many people will genuinely believe that he is the world champion, just because they aren't aware how companies use words like this to their own benefit, regardless of the real meaning.

Before one bows down to organisations like this because of the self-flattery and propaganda they put out, its always useful to ask yourself who is gaining the most from what is happening. Is FISM (a) a private (profit making) organisation, or is it (b) run purely in the interest of helping magic, like a charity, rather than to make a few guys rich. Or is it (c) both? It all seems a little bit like a huge club now. I wonder how many magicians aren't allowed in that club because they didn't do things the way FISM would like? I suspect there are plenty.

Mark · 03-24-2012, 02:01 PM

Thing is that the FISM is pretty much like the FIFA, apart from the fact that at FIFA gives each party (each football club) equal chances and rights, and there is quite a lot of transparancy in their case (even more than they actually would want).

However, both the FISM and the FIFA seem to have monopolies in their own fields, and all over the world too. They will always say that they want the best for their fields and they may actually believe themselves in saying so, but in the meantime there are major drawbacks that do in no way improve the art of magic or the sport of football (or soccer as some of you might call it).

For instance, Sepp Blatter (Mr. FIFA) is actually against an honest game of football with camera referees which would make mistakes of goals being given or rejected wrongly belong to the past, and later on even make yellow and red cards would end up being more factual. Almost every other sport has been made more honest in the past few years, but soccer apparently needs to stay dishonest and has to rely on just people with all their flaws. The FISM is just like that but as for not giving everyone an equal chance and as for their judging process, including but not limited to the way of doing research. Their jury's opinion is final and impossible to reconsider, similar to that of the FIFA, completely relying on people and just people, who I can guarantee make mistakes every now and then.

Anyhow, the FISM 2012 registrations have been closed for over a week now, so even if I should participate in the FISM World Championship, it'd actually be in 2015. Not something to worry about already, and definitely not after these posts.

KGaborMagic · 03-24-2012, 09:25 PM

I agree in almost everything with Mark, except the camera refree. I think the results in football don't depend just on the refree's mistakes. The fact that the refree can make mistakes sometimes just makes the match more interesting. Of course, that's just my opinion as a spectator, and maybe the players don't think the same.

Mark · 03-24-2012, 09:35 PM

As for the FIFA, as a spectator I find it highly annoying if a goal is rejected if the ball clearly went in, especially because all the cameras prove the opposite, or if a player is sent off because his opponent felt the need to dive, no matter who they are or what clubs they plays for. And on the screens in the stadiums such replays are rejected by the FIFA regulations too, trying to hide the fact of the goal for pretty much no reason (in other words, they know they are wrong but don't dare to admit it).

Just think of the hundreds and thousands of people it upsets. A continuous camera referee would solve so much frustration and anger, and would make the game so much more enjoyable in a positive way.

View Poll Results: Do you think Mystery Mark should go to the FISM?
Yes	5	45.45%
No	6	54.55%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

03-22-2012, 05:54 PM	#1
Arnau Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Barcelona Posts: 39	Fism I think Mark should participate in the FISM

03-22-2012, 06:54 PM	#2
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	Oh, don't get me started on this. I totally have something against the FISM as an organization, including but not limited to their contest. Don't know if it's fine to say too much about that in public though...

03-22-2012, 07:03 PM	#3
IdioticGod Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6	It is fine. Please, elaborate. (you know, if you want to. No pressure )

03-22-2012, 08:52 PM	#5
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	Okay.. hmmm.. how to put this.. Let me just say the FISM is an organization that would like to rule the entire world of magic (feel free to translate that to the most extreme form of ownership). As for the contest in particular, first off you are completely depending on a FISM Member Society (magic club) and/or its president in order to join the competition, and you will still have to pay quite a lot of money for the registration of this relatively exclusive contest (150 contestants in total). On top of that, in order to win you are completely depending on the jury, who is generally made up out of the all-knowing kind of magician and for that is impossible to judge everything in a fair manner (which is why Lennart Green was disqualified in 1988 for very wrong reasons and the jury didn't reconsider their decision. Mr Green got back in 1991 with the same act and won the competition). And although every now and then there are notable winners, calling the winners "the world champion of magic" or even "the best magicians in the world" is completely unjustified for those reasons. That's basically the short version.

03-22-2012, 10:47 PM	#6
Arnau Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Barcelona Posts: 39	OK, I understand what you mean. I had always thought it would be very cool to win

03-22-2012, 11:26 PM	#7
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	I think it's every magician's dream, until they really look into it. Basically, you pay your own prize (in case you would win), by paying contribution to a magic club and/or by paying for the registration. And you don't even know what the prizes are till they are about to be presented to the winners. Also, if you don't win or even if you end second, you won't get all that much attention, even though you did an incredible job. For an organization that says to want to help develop and elevate the art of magic, to judge in a close-minded fashion and to disqualify people or give them lower scores merely because they think these artists used stooges (without further investigation, Lennart Green wasn't the only one, and not the last one as well) is just outrageous. Maybe we should start our own FISM-like organization and make it more like the Olympics, more transparant and based on facts instead of merely personal opinions, and more open to everyone who deserves it.

03-23-2012, 06:16 AM	#8
Fin Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 530	I'm pretty new to magic so I may be wrong, but from the impression I've got, winning at Fism is like,.. well, winning at Fism. It's a bubble within itself. It's like starting up a martial arts company, getting in a load of talent, and then declaring the winner "world champion" (See the UFC). He's not "world" champion, of course; but it sounds good for the company, and many people will genuinely believe that he is the world champion, just because they aren't aware how companies use words like this to their own benefit, regardless of the real meaning. Before one bows down to organisations like this because of the self-flattery and propaganda they put out, its always useful to ask yourself who is gaining the most from what is happening. Is FISM (a) a private (profit making) organisation, or is it (b) run purely in the interest of helping magic, like a charity, rather than to make a few guys rich. Or is it (c) both? It all seems a little bit like a huge club now. I wonder how many magicians aren't allowed in that club because they didn't do things the way FISM would like? I suspect there are plenty.

03-24-2012, 02:01 PM	#9
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	Thing is that the FISM is pretty much like the FIFA, apart from the fact that at FIFA gives each party (each football club) equal chances and rights, and there is quite a lot of transparancy in their case (even more than they actually would want). However, both the FISM and the FIFA seem to have monopolies in their own fields, and all over the world too. They will always say that they want the best for their fields and they may actually believe themselves in saying so, but in the meantime there are major drawbacks that do in no way improve the art of magic or the sport of football (or soccer as some of you might call it). For instance, Sepp Blatter (Mr. FIFA) is actually against an honest game of football with camera referees which would make mistakes of goals being given or rejected wrongly belong to the past, and later on even make yellow and red cards would end up being more factual. Almost every other sport has been made more honest in the past few years, but soccer apparently needs to stay dishonest and has to rely on just people with all their flaws. The FISM is just like that but as for not giving everyone an equal chance and as for their judging process, including but not limited to the way of doing research. Their jury's opinion is final and impossible to reconsider, similar to that of the FIFA, completely relying on people and just people, who I can guarantee make mistakes every now and then. Anyhow, the FISM 2012 registrations have been closed for over a week now, so even if I should participate in the FISM World Championship, it'd actually be in 2015. Not something to worry about already, and definitely not after these posts.

03-24-2012, 09:25 PM	#10
KGaborMagic K. Gábor Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 229 Donor Score: 110	I agree in almost everything with Mark, except the camera refree. I think the results in football don't depend just on the refree's mistakes. The fact that the refree can make mistakes sometimes just makes the match more interesting. Of course, that's just my opinion as a spectator, and maybe the players don't think the same.

03-24-2012, 09:35 PM	#11
Mark Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 935	As for the FIFA, as a spectator I find it highly annoying if a goal is rejected if the ball clearly went in, especially because all the cameras prove the opposite, or if a player is sent off because his opponent felt the need to dive, no matter who they are or what clubs they plays for. And on the screens in the stadiums such replays are rejected by the FIFA regulations too, trying to hide the fact of the goal for pretty much no reason (in other words, they know they are wrong but don't dare to admit it). Just think of the hundreds and thousands of people it upsets. A continuous camera referee would solve so much frustration and anger, and would make the game so much more enjoyable in a positive way.