Magician, actor or what?

[OliveroG]

Hey guys, recently i had a conversation with Luis Otero and Max Maven in a magic convention, suddently a phrase came up from nowhere: "A magician is an actor roleplaying a magician" and this phrase started a very very long conversation about what is a magician in reality taking in count what an actor is, and we want to be, so i wanted to know your opinion, are we actors or not?

[Mark]

This is a very famous (if not the most famous) quote by Robert Houdin. I suppose you really could talk about it forever, but this is my take:

First I'd like to start off by something that seems to be off-topic, but you will see how it relates: the very famous phrase 'be yourself'. You hear plenty of people say that all the time, but if you truly think about it, there is no such thing as 'being yourself' because you continuously adjust to different situations. In one situation you would act totally different than in another. For that, you could see humans as actors all the time.

A magician could be defined as either an artist performing magic tricks or a sorcerer. For that, it would not be appropriate to use both definitions in the same sentence using the exact same word. You could replace the second 'magician' with 'wizard' if the magician is doing magic tricks, or with 'psychic' if it regards mentalism, or replace the first 'magician' with 'conjuror' which is what Houdin originally said, but both mean the same in everyday usage.

Now, a lot of magicians just adjust to the situation like any human being and don't act to be actual wizards or psychics, so the quote should not relate to those. It then would be the same as replacing the word 'magician' with any other kind of artist like 'musician' or 'juggler'. No one would say that these are actors. They are just performers. The fact that magicians sometimes lie about what is going on is part of the performance art and is a well-known fact for most spectators (and if you don't lie nor tell the truth, spectators would still be thinking it is magical because the lies are merely confirming what they see, so you would still qualify as a magician).

But if in your act, you indeed claim to have magic or psychic powers, then I'd say the quote is valid, regardless of the double usage of the word 'magician'.

[OliveroG]

What about if you're not claiming to be a psychic or a wizard, but you're constantly representing a "character" when doing magic?, this took me to an interesting point since i heard Juan Tamariz quote, who said "Is not that i'm someone else when i'm doing magic, it is that i am truly me when i am doing magic." in my particular case, i believe this phrase it's correct, and ergo, i don't think we're actually "actors", neither by definition (because we're already avoiding the fourth wall, which should disqualify us an actors) and by its "meaning" of being representing something, atleast not in the kind of magic i do, i think it would be different if my specialty was the argumented magic, anyhow, i'd like to heard everyone's opinion, this is an interesting topic i believe.

[Mark]

If you are representing a character different than your own and you do not claim to be a wizard or psychic, you are acting to be that character, but you are not acting the part of a magician. Leave the latter for Christian Bale and Hugh Jackman.

[Kelan]

I think it totally depends on your performance style. When I perform magic for friends or family, I am myself. I'm just a normal person showing off my hobby. I'm sure this topic differs for every situation. Some people perform with the mentality of, " I'm just a guy who knows how to do magic tricks", while others think, "I'm a magician, I can do magic, just watch". Some people even perform with the, "Look, look, watch, look *Puts on a dementated face and stares until it's awkward*. :P

[TommySteal]

You are right Marcos, this is interesting and there is certainly no set answer. All art including magic, I believe, is simply one expressing themselves which in turn is open to interpretation. In some respects I can see how magicians are perceived to be actors since many professionals/street entertainers use patter. As we all know, patter is a written and rehearsed dialogue the magicians use each time they perform that particular trick, much like an actor memorizing their lines.

On the other hand, an experienced magician may feel a completely impromtu performance of something to be more appropriate for a certain situation, leading him away from his rehearsed patter and act in a more similar manner explained by Mark earlier.

So yeah...it appears that sometimes we are sometimes not.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by TommySteal

In some respects I can see how magicians are perceived to be actors since many professionals/street entertainers use patter. As we all know, patter is a written and rehearsed dialogue the magicians use each time they perform that particular trick, much like an actor memorizing their lines.

That is a neat one. Do you think it's arguable whether comedians and all other artists who deal with patter could be seen as actors (apart from actual actors)?

[TommySteal]

I believe that just because there are similarities between actors, comedians, magicians etc, each is separate.

[Mark]

I share that opinion. I wonder who wouldn't though, so maybe there is a possibility to come up with a set answer to the question/statement anyways.

[thetophatfirm]

I would say that it really goes on with how you define yourself and what others decide to 'label' you. If you are a street performer and people ask you what you are, you can say "I am a street performer." but the crowd is labeling you as a busking bum because of your mannerism and act. So, I guess if you took it to a deeper level, where acting was a presentation of persona, the "magician who is an actor that is roleplaying a magician" would be a true statement to the true example.

So I guess the best way to come up with a set answer would be to use ourselves as the examples.

:I am a student who has learned how to control the moment. How do I do it?
[and this is where the outside labels me. It doesnt matter what you say you are, its what people see that makes you an actor, wizard, juggler, entertainer, or [insert your name here]]

I agree with Mark and Tommy though.

[TommySteal]

Duh...I over complicated myself.

After reading Marcos's thread I got the impression he and Max Maven agreed that magicians are actors. No?

[thetophatfirm]

i wouldnt know, I dont know them.

[OliveroG]

No, we didn't, the discussion ran to other point about magic being used as a help for social life, and how would it affect the social life, and the magic, i should post something about that to also share opinions, that's another interesting topic to talk about.
About the actor topic, we didn't really got any further than what we have here, it's a very subjetive topic that variates depending on the point of view and the formation of the performer, something that Luis Otero told us was that the famous Houdin's phrase was about flourishes but magic itself, the complete phrase (which i don't really remember) tells that flourishes aren't necessary on magic, because we should roleplay a magician, not a juggler, but that doesn't actually stops the discussion, because the topic as itselft, excluding Houdin's phrase, still has something that makes us think about what we really are, it's cool to hear everyone point of view also.

[Mark]

"A conjuror is not a juggler; he is an actor playing the part of a magician, an artist whose fingers have more need to move with deftness than with speed."

It's a question whether Houdin actually tried to describe what a conjuror is, or whether he wanted to make a clear difference between conjurors and jugglers/flourishers. As for the latter one, it would of course be way more valid than for the first one.