Unethical to perform tricks you've figured out?

[theheron]

So, this was posted by someone on E's wall:

"Am I the only one who learns tricks from trailers?"

and I was a little disturbed by E's response:

"It's considered poor ethics in the magic community, and you do not have the rights to perform the effect when you have not purchased it."

Your thoughts?

[Mark]

I think I read something similar on T11's Facebook. I absolutely disagree with it and think it's just some unwritten law created by magic sellers and stage illusion designers for the sake of making money.

Truth of the matter is that 1. stage illusions are crazy expensive so basically you only give rich people or performers that are willing to get in debt to buy your illusions the ability to perform them (and some stage illusions include patented mechanics which you would need a license for in order to be allowed to perform them so then you can just use the law against those performers anyways if you feel the need to, being the creator), and 2. as long as the performers don't claim anything to be their own inventions, what damage could they possibly do? That is, unless they perform things really badly, but else they would have other magicians check out the original and perhaps have them purchase it. Part of the business is getting recognized, and having more people perform your effects helps a lot as for that.

That being said, if you didn't buy an effect and you need and ask for help with it, yes, then it is getting unethical (maybe all help you need is in the actual product). Or if you start performing someone's trademark illusion as your own trademark illusion in a similar way (image theft). But I doubt there is any magician out there who only performs tricks they have actually bought, unless they have a pretty limited repertoire or own a huge collection.

I think people who own a lot of material also are more close-minded, and you will find that exactly those people are against performing-without-purchasing too. The more they own, the more frustrated they get when they see something that uses none of the principles described in their collection, and the sooner they will be calling fake on things, similar to those who have been mentored. You could almost literally say it's been a waste of money in those cases.

And I am pretty sure that being self-taught is one of the reasons why I can come up with things that have been overlooked by previous creators, so I am very much against E's and T11's statements since recreating and figuring out tricks without purchasing them triggers people their imagination much more and leads to much more notable creations.

[Albert]

I say that is completely bulls**t.

I have just one thing to add to Mark's point, which is the fact that Ellusionist actually also gives away free tricks.

That being said, they are then saying that these tricks are unethical to perform, so they are encouraging the lack of ethics.

I just think that it's that one staff (or a group of them) who's trying to act all smart, attempting to increase sales, while in reality, he's just some wanna-be internet jock. Ignore those people. It's not worth the trouble to think about it when it doesn't even make sense.

[Mark]

Let me post the Theory11 thing from Facebook including their motivations:

Originally Posted by Pedro

i figured it out!!!!!!

I especially find the "but you specifically wrote that you were going to perform the effect *without* purchasing it" kind of strange because that is absolutely nowhere to be read.

But yeah, on a more serious note, I think they are right about being mindful of the creator, sure. That they think buying the effect is part of that goes right over my head though, especially when realizing they are the ones making money with it themselves. Let them give 95+% profit to the creators first before making such statements.

[Albert]

I also can't believe they just talked about "legal" rights as well. This is getting ridiculous. What, these tricks are patented now and we have to buy a license or something, and unless we do, we can't perform it? So where's the patent?

If someone can figure it out, that has nothing to do with ethics.

Theory11 is making a fool out of themselves by talking about legal stuff.

I'm getting so mad right now because of their lack of morality...

[Mark]

Alby, take a deep breath please. We don't want to get sued for blowing up the T11 headquarters using your mind as bomb, do we? That'd leave such messy marks as evidence. /inappropriateness

I think people forget that they don't actually have to post a video of whatever they created or release everything they came up with. Either keep things safe off of the internet or have others recreate the tricks, it's all up to the creators.

[Albert]

*Takes a deep breath*

Okay. I'm better now. They should seriously keep their act together and make sure their staff knows what they are talking about.

[theheron]

Haha yes, I heartily disagree with what E and T11 have said about having to purchase tricks to perform them, I guess what they keep saying about "making you a better magician" is false, maybe it was true once but it seems like it's all about the money now.

[Mark]

Let's see what Ellusionist says about when you wouldn't have money and figured out a trick from the trailer:

Originally Posted by Ellusionist (Facebook)

the answer is saving until you can afford the product, purchasing it, supporting the creator and gaining knowledge ethically.
I really want a Ferrari. The question arises how do I get one? The answer is not to take one for a free test drive every time I need to use a car and never buy it. The answer is to save my money until I can afford it, purchase it, and then appreciate having it all the more because I worked for it.

So a performance art now is similar to a car? I think their example is better comparable to a deck of cards or any other prop, but not to magic tricks.

Although, I like the idea of having a free test drive with tricks I figured out through the trailers or video performances. If after some test drives I think it's something I'll be doing for the rest of my life, I may as well purchase it someday, but that is totally up to me.

That's really ridiculous! I often figure out tricks and then perform them without having bought them. It's not unethical as long as you don't reveal the trick.

[Albert]

I told you, these guys are just trying to come up with stupid excuses to make you buy the tricks. Even after all this discussion on ethics on our other posts about lying in magic, we couldn't come up with a single agreeable term on what ethics is in magic.

If that's the case, who says that Ellusionist's or Theory11's definition of ethics is correct? Their ethics state: "If you don't buy the trick, you don't deserve to perform it." They think they are the authority and are abusing that higher standing as a business.

Honestly, I wish I could expose all of this stupidity and nonsense to the entire magic community and see people's reactions to this.

[la0o9]

really? people actually respect these guys? it's only unethical if a person claims something that isn't theirs to be theirs, the performers aren't, at least, not in the credits section( hey, you HAVE to lie to spectators about this in the performance or it won't flow naturally). "If you don't buy the trick it's not morally right to do the trick", what? so they're saying that people who make cover songs of popular ones on sale on Youtube based on a free video or a free MP3 file online are unethical? i'm comparing those 2 since they are the same thing, figuring out a way to replicate the materials seen online for free.

[ItsMagicITellYou]

i left for a week, and when i come back i see T11 prancing around doing all this dumb stuff.......seriously? that isn't even borderline. its just stupid.

[TheMisdirectingHand]

Most of these companies just say that because they will not profit from any of this. Take DarkSleightz for example, many people create many variations to the effects performed by Mark. Personally, I think it should be encouraged, since most of the effects are not for sale anymore. If an individual takes an effect and tries to figure it out themselves, and replicates it, then I think that is just making it "your own" in a sense. Isn't that what magic is supposed to be? Creativity is the limit, not phony copyright laws.

[Kelan]

I think that it's perfectly fine to perform tricks you haven't purchased. In fact, I think it should be encouraged- it opens many doors to YOUR own handling as well as new patter. For example, some books that are directed towards card magic don't offer patter- just explain how to do the trick. I LOVE doing this. But if you purchase a book that offers "exquisite" patter, I personally don't feel the need to change it. If the author of the book has been successful with it, I think I would be too.

[Mark]

It's not true that they don't profit from any of it, yet they think so. They forget that all those performances get them a lot bigger audience = more customers = more money.

Magic shouldn't stop there where the sales stop. What if I wouldn't decide to sell my tricks at all? Or what if I'm not sure if I will? Does that mean that I have to torture other magicians for the rest of my and their lives because they can't perform my effects or their takes on them because that is "unethical"? No wonder magic seems to be evolving rather slowly under the regime of the FISM and those magic companies.

Funny is that now they are all like "It's bad, you don't have any rights to do that!" but as soon as the creator is dead they couldn't care less if you learn it from his release or from anywhere else, there where if actual copyright laws would've been involved, they would've had to wait a whole lifetime in order to be allowed to use the sleights and tricks and such. No, magic sellers coming up with their own "universal" magic laws and ethics is no good idea at all. Just another thing to kill the art and to turn it into one big business.

[MeandmagiC]

Theory11 has no right to say what you can and cannot perform.
I dislike the powerplay of Theory11.
There is no such thing as having rights on Idea's or tricks, unless you have a contract or an agreement.
You have to buy a piece of Dvd you are not going to watch to be allowed to perform a trick? That is just... the product of the gastrointestinal tract of a bull!

THe only thing you can do as a creator to prevent tricks from being revealed online , is, hoping your trick does not get revealed. or, make it impossible to figure it out, which is ....magic!

I am not saying you are ethically allowed (in my opinion) to copy tricks and claim them as your own...No, ofcourse you can not. But, you can give the creator some credits when it is necessary.
And, if you want to be safe, publish a performance as a "variation" on the trick.

this is getting a long post. and I could talk about this for a long time. but lets be serious.
T11 is limiting Pedro's freedom by telling him he can't perform something. But since they haven't taken any measures (yet), they are just powerplaying.

If Pedro is in a rebellious mood, I suggest him to post a video under the name, Vertigo.
To show T11 they doesn't have power, since they don't. Do they?

[Fin]

I'm no lawyer so I don't know the ins and outs of "idea theft" and how much of a trick, if any, Theory 11 or any other company actually "owns" when they put out a video featuring it. They own the rights to the video, and I totally believe that someone else putting up an explanation video on youtube is unethical and possibly illegal. But performing a trick you have watched and worked out yourself is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT, and I'd love to see which paragraph of their terms and conditions they quote which says someone can't perform something they haven't even bought. No legal contract has been signed, nothing has been bought, but they want to have a say in what I perform just because I watched one of their trailers? Nah. Unfortunately reality is not on their side if any company selling magic wants to also own anyone who performs it! It is worth noting however that if you want to put on a school play of "The Lion King" you will have to get permission from Disney!! You have all been warned.

[MeandmagiC]

Originally Posted by Fin

It is worth noting however that if you want to put on a school play of "The Lion King" you will have to get permission from Disney!! You have all been warned.

haha, yeah we had that too in school.
We wanted to do a "Lion King" musical here in holland. But some company had already bought the rights (it even hadn't been performed yet :O ) .
So, we called it: "Hakuna Matata" and everything was fine!

This year we are doing Beauty and the Beast, but we call it: Belle and the beast (which is a combination of the english title and the Dutch title)
and everything is fine again.

so, i suggest, post a performance, and call it "fear of hights" and there you go! xD

[la0o9]

no it isn't... we call that taking something and giving it a new name while claiming it your own... no one will bother suing you for stealing a little trick and calling it your own, but EVERYONE will bash you on for the REST. OF. YOUR. LIFE.( or, it least until you take the video off)