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-   -   Jonathan Kamm (kammagic) Exposed (http://www.magiciansthegathering.com/community//showthread.php?t=81)

TheMisdirectingHand 03-11-2011 01:34 AM

That is correct, how else would he have gotten feedback from all of these well-known magicians? He has been a resident magician working in the bar for fourteen years. He takes pride in his internet advertising with his products and quotes from other famous magicians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kammagic
I have a group of guys in India who all love me and watch my videos religiously. Their club is just for guys who love me.

Here, we see him expressing what he is through the internet. Why would he be waving that fact around?
Kind of off topic, but his wording in this particular part of the passage reminds me of Johnny.

la0o9 03-11-2011 05:23 AM

it's odd... we never disputed his talent or skills... weren't we just saying that his personality towards other magicians that was bad?( i know of the spring control thing, that may have been our fault)

Albert 03-11-2011 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by la0o9 (Post 1220)
it's odd... we never disputed his talent or skills... weren't we just saying that his personality towards other magicians that was bad?( i know of the spring control thing, that may have been our fault)

That's exactly right.

But, it seems like Jonathan was going off track, so we decided to hitch a ride beside him :)

But as you have said, it's not skill, abilities, knowledge, experience, or whoever famous you know that matters. If you have poor respect for other people, then it just doesn't work out in the end.

I see where he is coming from, when he mentions extremely under-experienced magicians criticizing him. Even if it wasn't true, even I would feel sort of confuzzled (yes, I just added confused and puzzled together).

But being able to accept that is a trait that Jonathan was not willing to learn while boasting wayyyyyyyy too much then was necessary. I just don't agree with how he deals with people he either sees inferior or as a threat. It's very primitive from my perspective.

TheMisdirectingHand 03-11-2011 02:49 PM

Don't you think that if maybe he was skilled enough, the extremely under-experienced magicians would be criticizing him?

Jonathan uses quotes and compliments from other famous magicians as backup and proof of some of his skills to an extent, while he thinks that "other magicians are tainted with their knowledge" (taken from one of his comments on YouTube). His personality may be bad towards them, but I don't think he would fight back against compliments and praise.

Mark 03-11-2011 05:06 PM

Another email has been added to the end of March 2011 document: Download PDF. :)

As I don't like never-ending back-and-forth emailing, I won't reply in another email myself. I'm sure Jonathan reads this anyways.

Although I'll let the mails speak for themselves, I'd like to point out some things:

Jonathan ended up saying that he was impressed with me being in the commercial and that it looked like fun. Is this how we say "Sorry. I was wrong." nowadays? I sure think that'd be the only proper thing to say after all the unnecessary, ungrounded, inappropriate bashing.. but maybe that's just me.

He also stated that I worked with paid actors. I doubt he has ever seen and/or heard of Big Brother (another concept by the Dutch) but Axe Heaven On Earth was just like that, yet with three angels and people getting invited to join the girls instead. The reactions of those girls were as honest as they could get. They sure were paid to be in the house for two full weeks non-stop, but not to act happy. They had their depressing and upset moments too and if I would've had sucked at magic their reactions would've said so.

And with so many people watching it sure wouldn't be a good idea to do the easiest tricks too, or else these would've been exposed on the web in no time. I honestly think that no unexperienced magician would've been as relaxed or would've even succeeded in that situation.

He also claimed that I'd have to prove myself right because his 27 years of experience tells me we are wrong about criticizing him. I think that continuously falling back on the fact of being a magician (something we never even questioned) while we obviously called him out for his online behavior doesn't quite help the discussion to end up anywhere. The world wide web didn't even exist 27 years ago. I think that anyone under the age of 25 is more experienced at it because they grew up with it.

As we can't see what he behaves like in real life through our screens, there is absolutely no evidence for him being the nicest guy on this planet. Saying that about yourself isn't a very nice thing to do either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kammagic
This is typical hater behavior. They attack. You defend yourself, They don't listen and attack again ......and again ...and again.

Nuff said. ^_^

King Johnny 03-11-2011 06:10 PM

grow up
 
Dont you think alot of what you guys are saying is judgemental and considered "hate"? To follow his videos and be critical, is what you all consider hate. Time to move on to performing people. There are far better ways to spend your time. I come back here after all this time to find people using my name again. I guess you guys never learn. Yes, me and Jonathan Kamm say alot of the same things, because as I said before-we are workers-most of you are not. Also, Albert, for you to say working behind a camera is any comparison to a real performance is just foolish. Get real. Oh yea, Mark-I still dont see any performance videos from you,and Im not talking street magic,Im talking in front of a audience.(here's the face you always use...) :thinking:

Mark 03-11-2011 06:24 PM

Right after I showed Jonathan that I perform live (although he already knew about that anyways), you decide to register and to post that? :p

I don't actually need live performance videos to prove myself right. That Jonathan and you feel like you do is just silly. :)

I keep my magic videos and live performances seperated due to various reasons. First, because the majority of live performance videos are just for the reactions and not for the magic, and thus is a totally different kind of entertainment. Second, because they often ruin the magic, if not for potential spectators who will be watching me live and then have already seen the tricks in those contexts. And third but not least, because I like to interact with my audiences which in case of YouTube are the video viewers and not the live audiences. Same with Tinychat viewers watching me live in video streams, and live audiences watching my magic in real life. Simple as that. ^_^

King Johnny 03-11-2011 06:37 PM

oh no problem-I just thought you might have more than one show. I post vids of shows I have done in the past. The stuff here on youtube I dont even perform anymore. Its not silly to question someones experience.For someone who gives advice to aspiring magicians it would be nice to see they really know what theyre talking about. If I said I was a actor and gave acting advice here on youtube,and even did little video skits of me acting on youtube,people may say"hey do you have any real-world acting clips"?

---------- Post added at 06:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:32 PM ----------

But anyway the real question was dont you think you guys are hating one here? Finding one little thing that some does or has said and drilling it? Are you all perfect or something? Also do you think its fair to post private conversations between you and others? That seems petty. When two men are talking or argueing about something,then you post it on here so your friends can jump in and gang up on the person seems a little cowardly

Mark 03-11-2011 06:41 PM

And then I say: "I do, but I didn't upload them to YouTube. If you want to see me perform live, feel free to add me to any instant messenger and I'll show you, and whoever you want to invite, privately." Problem solved. ^_^

We actually got veeeery few people asking us for live performance videos. :thinking:

And we aren't hating, no, apart from hating on hate every now and then. We actually love life enough that we try to get rid of all the hate. If we need to point out that Muammar Gaddafi does terrible things to the Libyans, we gladly do so though Gaddafi himself wouldn't like that. That's obviously exaggerated but it aren't little things we point out, it are actually very important things that could seriously damage people their chances of being succesful and/or their views towards the art of magic. We don't want that to happen and so we point it out and be sure that everyone can read it so that no one else will make such mistakes. ^_^

I think Jonathan described typical hater behavior perfectly. ;)

King Johnny 03-11-2011 06:46 PM

Could you please answer the question at the bottom of my last response?

Mark 03-11-2011 06:52 PM

Already have. :)
Sorry, but I only noticed it after I posted my reply as you added it later.

Albert 03-11-2011 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Johnny (Post 1229)
f you are not. Also, Albert, for you to say working behind a camera is any comparison to a real performance is just foolish. Get real.

I am getting as real as possible. I've been performing practically every single day (Except for weekends) for all 4 years of my high school through lunch breaks and after school as well. I've performed in countless parties and meetings (of course, with an exception of bar/restaurants; saying it now so you won't make false claims and statements like last time,calling me a liar.

And you know what I found? With hours of practice and the confidence you build up on yourself, I found it to be absolutely easy to perform for spectators. Of course, getting your patter work takes more effort. But I love interacting with them and just showing them my best magic possible because I know I can do it. I can use all the necessary misdirection in the world and they can laugh and have a blast. You can't do that through camera. Try making people laugh and actually enjoying their life through camera. You will find how hard it is to:
1) Make them smile and legitimately laugh,
2) To hide your moves completely so that replays become useless (i.e. to fool other magicians completely);
3) To apply surroundings to make the entertainment that much stronger.

Maybe this sort of explains how I view the consequences of video performances.

michi 03-15-2011 01:15 PM

Hi.

Is this what kammagics video is about? I googled but this is all i find.

If it is, it is not as bad than what he wrote in the video. I see what all of you come from.
Wanted to tell you guys you are wrong but your not.:)

tzihb 03-15-2011 01:15 PM

Oh man, come on. Serious?
He has uploaded a new Video, calling this site “a hater forum”, created for hating. I'm not a hater and honestly I think you guys either. There was just a disagreement between him and this forum. It is degenerated, of course, but he has generalized everything. Haters hate without a reason. Also, why has he made this video? I think he needs agreement. Maybe not. I don't know.

Jonathan, if you read this, you will probably think I am a hater. I'm not. I subsribed to your channel because I want to see magic and not to read about your “haters”. This is not ok.

Just my opinion :)

Mark 03-15-2011 02:55 PM

If only he would've kept everything in its context. If I wouldn't know about this thread I'd support him too due to what he said in the video. Who would create a whole forum just to hate on him?! Amateurs with a conman as their idol?! An amateur who tells a 27 year professional he is wrong?! How dare they?!

There is no person in the world who wouldn't feel sorry for Jonathan if they would've only seen the video and not know about this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by michi (Post 1288)
Hi.

Is this what kammagics video is about? I googled but this is all i find.

If it is, it is not as bad than what he wrote in the video. I see what all of you come from.
Wanted to tell you guys you are wrong but your not.:)

I'd like to give you props for reading this thread and not making thoughtless statements. This indeed is the thing Jonathan talked about in his video and it indeed is nothing like what he said in his video. :)

s13zeTheDay 03-15-2011 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark (Post 1291)
If only he would've kept everything in its context. If I wouldn't know about this thread I'd support him too due to what he said in the video. Who would create a whole forum just to hate on him?! Amateurs with a conman as their idol?! An amateur who tells a 27 year professional he is wrong?! How dare they?!

There is no person in the world who wouldn't feel sorry for Jonathan if they would've only seen the video and not know about this thread.


I'd like to give you props for reading this thread and not making thoughtless statements. This indeed is the thing Jonathan talked about in his video and it indeed is nothing like what he said in his video. :)

I completely agree with you mark. I thank you michi for taking the time to research the background of the video for yourself. I only wish that everyone else knew what you do. I would post something about it on the video, but it would probably blocked.

Albert 03-15-2011 05:34 PM

-________- WOW...

He just made the video to make him sound like the complete victim here.

Well, that's the only way one can get support when they are in the wrong; to hide the wrong.

Mark 03-15-2011 05:59 PM

It also shows how dishonest he is and that he is very well aware of it too.
Ah well, if it makes him feel good, so be it. He apparently needed it. ^_^

Albert 03-15-2011 06:20 PM

What I find amusing is that he called you a conman. So in other words, he has attempted to publicly humiliate Mark by calling him a fake when he isn't.

Now I wonder how people would respond when they found out that Jonathan was calling Mark a fake when he obviously has all the proof he needs to disprove that. From a bystanders point of view, I would start questioning Jonathan's actions. Of course, some gullible people will side with Jonathan though :)

Mark 03-15-2011 07:16 PM

Well, I promised to do no harm to the guy (though it'd be the question whether it'd be me doing harm to him or Jonathan doing harm to himself).

Quite some of the people who commented are actually registered to this board already. Eventually they will find out about this and make up their minds like michi did. ^_^

TheMisdirectingHand 03-15-2011 08:09 PM

All we can do is sit back and watch. Let's see where this ride ends, shall we?

Mark 03-15-2011 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMisdirectingHand (Post 1297)
All we can do is sit back and watch. Let's see where this ride ends, shall we?

I have my popcorn and coke ready. Haven't seen a comedy-drama in a while. ^_^

All silliness aside, I think this ride won't ever end. Jonathan will always be frustrated due to the fact this thread will stay up, especially when figuring out that manipulating the facts wasn't the smartest thing for him to do and will eventually only cause more people to dislike him.

s13zeTheDay 03-15-2011 10:12 PM

I won't do it without your consent, but I think someone should post a link to this forum on the video.

Mark 03-15-2011 10:46 PM

Nah, eventually someone will show up and do it for us. I don't think we should boost it ourselves or else we'd be looking like the bad guys. ^_^

Albert 03-15-2011 10:54 PM

Remember David's signature:

"There are three types of people in this world;

•People who talk and never do: The Lower Class

•People who talk and do at the same time: The Middle Class

•People who do before they ever talk: The Upper Class

A real man does not need to talk. We are the upper class."

-Joseph Lau

TheMisdirectingHand 03-16-2011 01:16 AM

Thank you Albert :D

I think Seize is correct though. Why don't we let them know about the forum? They will be able to see for themselves what Jonathan really is. Their opinion is their own. We cannot change it, but the least we can do is provide the facts and evidence in front of them.

Albert 03-16-2011 03:42 AM

You are right. But you see, there are 2 possibilities why he didn't reveal the forums:
1) To try and stay respectful (which is very contradictory);
2) To try and make sure he gets his voice out there without revealing his faults.

Let Jonathan "shower" in his fame and glory for a bit more.

The most valuable lesson I've learned with the issue between Johnny and Jonathan was that whoever loses their temper first is the one who actually admits their faults (not that I believe we were at fault in the first place... maybe we did snicker at them a bit ;)).

To be honest, I'm personally a real strong-headed or stubborn person myself. But I know how to control that when I need to. Even if I know for sure I'm right, if the other party refuses to give up, I'll just let it be most of the time. Preferably, I would try and reason myself with why these people are saying these sort of things and actually open myself up to learn from my mistakes. But I don't believe that Jonathan was trying to reason with himself. It was like he is a door that allows nothing in, but allows everything inside out.

From a bystander's point of view (with bias reduced as much as possible), which I kind of am since I've never participated in direct conversations with him, he is very stubborn. My first impression of him after reading the first few pages were:
1) He hates disses against him;
2) He tries to make himself seem better than he actually is;
3) He is skillful, no doubt, and experienced; but doesn't really understand how to handle seemingly younger or inferior people as "people". He knows his stuff when he comes to spectators, I'm sure. He has been doing magic for 27 years according to him.
4) His mindset is too narrow. He should open up more. Criticism means "the act or art of analyzing and evaluating or judging the quality of a literary or artistic work, etc."
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan
"I NEVER care what magicians think about my magic. Their view is tainted by their knowledge of magic. I only listen to my lay audiences. That is one of the secrets to being a great magician"

If this is the case, why would you even consider deleting the comments that don't give positive feedbacks? Criticism is not only used in a negative sense. People aren't stupid enough to mindlessly give "criticism" to experienced people. They believe they are providing him with constructive criticism and then, it gets deleted. I would feel pretty upset at how my voice was shriveled up in an instant, not because it was ignored, but because it was considered useless, pathetic, and garbage.
5) He doesn't want to be wrong.

I'm sure Jonathan's a great guy and all, but from seeing this, that's all I can say. I haven't seem the best of his side, but only seen the bad side of him :(

la0o9 03-16-2011 05:06 AM

Well, like David said, let's sit back and watch whatever Jonathan and his supporters will act like, the ride should be ending within the next week or two, when all the smart people realizes the truth.

GloriousMagic 03-16-2011 08:14 AM

Hmm... Recently saw Kammagic's video, and was so infuriated by the 'haters'!

Then I realised that the 'haters' turned out to be DarkSleightZ!

I then proceeded to read the forum, and was shocked to know about Jonathan's arrogance and his dishonest behaviour, to make his subscribers take his side.

Seriously, I think that one should not be so over-bearing and arrogant, but should be receptive to new ideas. Just because he has 27 years of experience and is quite skilful, does not mean he is the best and he is always right.

True enough, it is his channel and his video, so nobody has the authority to prevent him from deleting useful comments. But that will not change the opinion of others. Imagine how other people will look at him after they read this forum. That may be the reason why Jonathan does not dare to notify his subscribers about this forum.

I do not think that there is a need to continue on with this argument, since Jonathan's ear are shut to valuable opinions. By the way, Mark and Albert are certainly no amateurs=)

P.S. I apologise for my typo errrors

Mark 03-16-2011 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloriousMagic (Post 1307)
That may be the reason why Jonathan does not dare to notify his subscribers about this forum.

I think we can be sure of that. If this was actually a forum made to hate on him, Jonathan could've just linked to it and have his subscribers kill it. If he would do that in this case, his subscribers would find out the truth.. like you.. and would turn against him. :)

Thanks for joining and letting us know about it. ^_^

michi 03-17-2011 04:36 PM

I did link the forums to people who commented to kammagics video. looks like people agree with this thread. some statements from PMs:

'i agree, but i still love Jonathan, he is one of my favorite magicians on YouTube'

'I agree Jonathan Kamm is EXTREMELY talented and has obviously put in the hard hours to become this good. Though i notice when i watch his videos and see the comments he always reply's to them by kind of correcting them and in my opinion trying to play god.
I hope this makes sense.'

'I guess Jonathan just took it out of proportion.'

Albert 03-17-2011 06:20 PM

Ah... I see. I was wondering why there were so many guests viewing the threads the last few days. :hm:

Mark 03-17-2011 09:05 PM

Thanks a bunch, michi! I appreciate your honesty and that you did this, being a true supporter of Jonathan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan
Here is a great quote sent in by one of my subscribers.

"It doesn’t matter how many people don’t get it. What matters is how many people do."

Bravo!

I think this would be a good closer. It's great to see that his supporters get what we are saying in here while Jonathan himself doesn't get it. It's not about him not getting it, it's about all the people including his supporters who actually get it. ^_^

MeandmagiC 03-17-2011 10:17 PM

He removed the comment and posted it again with "This is referring to haters. Haters don't get it. They don't understand. All that should matter to you are the people who like you."

does he really not see he is the only person hating and not understanding it? while everyone else does?

Mark 03-17-2011 10:45 PM

I wonder if the subscriber in question actually meant it that way. However, I'd like to point out something else from the comment section:
Quote:

Originally Posted by kammagic
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffreyuitalmelo
You say they just hate and don't have any arguments, but that is incorrect as you can see on the so-called 'haters-forum', you can ask mister niceguy here for the link, if he dares to give it.

Besides, you are manipulating people, you give them false information and you remove negative comments, how else could 17 people dislike with only positive comments?

You'll propably delete this one too, but I hope you don't, it would be very nice since there is nothing wrong or inappropiate ;)

See what I have to deal with subscribers. Jeffrey you guys have your forum where you can post all the opinions you want. This is my forum where I get to post mine. You made your bed. Now "lie" in it.

I don't even know Jeffrey.. and I'm pretty sure he's not a member of this board either. :thinking:

If Jonathan thinks that either his supporters or we are actually dumb and that he can make up things to win souls like he did in the video, he sure doesn't know what he's actually doing.

But I guess we did our job well because we even got approval of his own supporters and subscribers now who apparently noticed the exact same things we wrote in here. He can continu manipulating whatever he wants but it won't get him anywhere. ^_^

Albert 03-17-2011 11:15 PM

*sigh* It's not very hard to admit your own mistake is it? I mean, compared to losing all faith from your loyal subscribers.

Mark 03-17-2011 11:34 PM

He already said he doesn't care about subscribers/virtual supporters, didn't he?

But I'm glad to see that they said they will keep supporting him for his magic, the way it's supposed to be.. just like what we said in here already. We don't want him to lose magic supporters, neither ones who support his magic just on the internet. :)

Albert 03-18-2011 12:28 AM

You are right Mark. You are right. :)

michi 03-21-2011 08:31 PM

after many more positive replies i get this: 'i dont subscribe to anyone who blindly hates someone else. Mark for instance is a total douche. i will not "join".'

i didnt ask to subscribe anyone and he says he doesnt blindly hate but calls Mark a total douch!??!?!

Albert 03-21-2011 09:27 PM

Don't worry too much about it. It's just self-serving bias in play. Some people just really hate to be proved wrong. I do too sometimes. I'm sure Mark won't take it personally :)

But thanks for letting us know michi :D


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